# What do non-alphabetic cultures use in place of "alphabetical order"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-non-alphabetic-cultures-use-in-place-of-alphabetical-order/161377
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [March 14, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-non-alphabetic-cultures-use-in-place-of-alphabetical-order/161377 "2003-03-14T16:42:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 8
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-non-alphabetic-cultures-use-in-place-of-alphabetical-order/161377/21 "2003-03-15T16:55:53Z")
To further explain my two postings above, please see the following links to Omniglot a guide to writing systems:
[ul][Vietnamese Viê.t Ngu+~](http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vietnamese.htm)
(The way I typed the words for these postings is one of the internet standards so folks who don’t have the Vietnamese fonts with driver can see use Vietnamese on the 'Net)
[Japanese Hiragana](http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese_hiragana.htm)
[Japanese Katakana](http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese_katakana.htm)[/ul]
Harking back to the OP, this link from Omniglot may be of some use:
[ul][Chinese](http://www.omniglot.com/writing/chinese.htm)[/ul]
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### Author:  [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-non-alphabetic-cultures-use-in-place-of-alphabetical-order/161377/22 "2003-03-15T18:20:59Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Originally posted by **Space Vampire**
> … How do people who speak Cantonese and no Mandarin type? I’m shocked by the number of people in Hong Kong who can’t type Chinese. If I can type Chinese they should be able to! …
IIRC, pinyin was used only relatively recently and Mandarin was only recently (relative) standardised as common. before all this spoken Chinese was Cantonese, Mandarin, Hokkien, etc and written Chinese is standard. so the strokes system served well across for all the different dialects.
now pinyin is based on Mandarin and not for the other dialects, therefore everyone else who have not mastered Mandarin would have a problem with it.
i am certain all pc literate people in Hong Kong would be able to type Chinese if they wanted to, as there are various methods to key Chinese other than pinyin, including the strokes system. it’s my guess that those who don’t simple don’t bother to, as the 101 keyboard isn’t particularly suited to type Chinese at all…
perhaps a Doper from Hong Kong would be better suited to clarify…
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### Author:  [@Space\_Vampire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Vampire)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-non-alphabetic-cultures-use-in-place-of-alphabetical-order/161377/23 "2003-03-15T18:37:17Z")
I personally type with a mix of Mandarin pinyin (because it’s standardized and can recognize multiple-character words) and Cantonese guesswork (for when I don’t know the Mandarin pronunuciation) but I guess this isn’t exactly the norm. The fact that so many people say they don’t know how to type Chinese has convinced me there must be some arcane system they’re referring to that I’m not familiar with, but it may just be that their Mandarin sucks or is nonexistant and they’re too lazy to take a stab at figuring out Cantonese romanization.
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### Author:  [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-non-alphabetic-cultures-use-in-place-of-alphabetical-order/161377/24 "2003-03-16T11:43:56Z")
Both.
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### Author:  [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-non-alphabetic-cultures-use-in-place-of-alphabetical-order/161377/25 "2003-03-16T14:23:01Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Northern Piper \*
> \*\*I thought that the Japanese word for “Japan” was “Nippon”? or am I misremembering something? \*\*
You’re not misremembering, Japan, in Japanese, is eaither Nippon or Nihon.
Japanese syllabaries have characters for NA, NI, NU, NE, and NO, and also characters for N. “Nihon” is written with three kanas, NI-HO-N. It’s that last ‘N’ character that never starts a word. Note that this ‘N’ sound is considered a syllable, thus “nihon” (Japan) and “onna” (woman) are both three-syllable words. (If you want to complicate things, “Nippon” is a four-syllable word…)
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-non-alphabetic-cultures-use-in-place-of-alphabetical-order/161377/26 "2003-03-16T16:52:06Z")
Actually, jovan, it’s a four-_mora_, three-syllable word.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-non-alphabetic-cultures-use-in-place-of-alphabetical-order/161377/27 "2003-03-16T16:58:54Z")
No sooner had I posted that above, did I realize that I should’ve run to my Japanese dictionary first.
Said dictionary (New Horizon Japanese-English, if you’re interested) gives the kana for the Japanese word for Japan as _Ni-Ho-N_. Therefore, the word has a count of three for both the moras and the syllables. Caveat: If you’re counting syllables the way Japan does, then the final N is considered a syllable (providing for 3 syllables in that word); if you’re counting them the way English does, then the word’s only two syllables long.
So now another question arises: Why is it transliterated with a geminate _p_?
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### Author:  [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-non-alphabetic-cultures-use-in-place-of-alphabetical-order/161377/28 "2003-03-16T21:01:33Z")
I have never been able to find an entirely satisfactory answer to the “Nihon”/“Nippon” question - this [cite](http://www.bartleby.com/61/67/J0016700.html), from the American Heritage dictionary, is typical - and repeats what several Japanese professors told me. “Nippon” is allegedly closer to the Chinese pronunciation, and “nihon” is a Japanese evolution from that.
As for the “geminate _p_.” I believe this is because the first character’s on-yomi (“Chinese” reading, which is generally what’s used in building compounds) is “nichi” or “nitsu” and not simply “ni.”\* The second character’s on-yomi is hon. It is common to combine “chi” or “tsu” with a subsequent syllable begining with an “h” into a long “p.” That’s rendered in English with the double p, Nippon, and in kana is the _chisai tsu_, or small “tsu” character.
Another example of this would be the [counter](http://japanese.about.com/library/weekly/aa061001a.htm) “hai,” used for counting liquids in glasses or bowls. Ichi-hai, one glass, becomes “ippai.” Ni-hai, two glasses, is simply nihai. The third variation shows what happens when the syllable “n” is followed by an “h” syllable - the “h” mutates into a “b,” so san-hai becomes “sanbai.” (And the “n” effectively is pronounced “m.”)
Given that, it’s really the “nihon” pronunciation that’s oddball, although in my experience it’s officially favored - at least since the war, it seems.
\*This, according to my 1962 edition Nelson’s.
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