# What do people who advocate mental health reforms as a solution to mass shootings really envision? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 3, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379 "2015-10-03T16:49:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/61 "2015-10-03T22:25:44Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > [Here is a thread on this same topic from 2013.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=678247) Post #2 and #40 have detailed information. Or you know, google. You claim in post [#40](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15881345&postcount=40) on the other thread that: Even with that I don’t want people who are felons or have been mentally adjudicated to possess or purchase firearms. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that’s not a controversial stance. So, anyone who has been involuntarily institutionalized for a mental health issue, you think they should never be able to own/poses/purchase a gun? Am I exaggerating your position? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/62 "2015-10-03T22:25:48Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > ETA2: I personally consider gun ownership to be a privilege and not a right, similar to driving a tractor trailer or flying a plane. It should be controlled and heavily regulated. Forgot to respond to this one. This reveals a fundamental ignorance on this topic. Gun ownership is a right and that is the law of the land. It’s not similar to driving a tractor trailer or flying a plane because here’s a clue - those aren’t fundamentally enumerated constitutional rights. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/63 "2015-10-03T22:29:08Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Forgot to respond to this one. This reveals a fundamental ignorance on this topic. Gun ownership is a right and that is the law of the land. It’s not similar to driving a tractor trailer or flying a plane because here’s a clue - those aren’t fundamentally enumerated constitutional rights. Why are you being so rude? I personally consider: that means I disagree with the constitution, not, they don’t know what it says. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/64 "2015-10-03T22:31:52Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > When I’ve talked about this with other people, what I’ve heard is that access to mental health care is not always easily accessible or affordable. So I think that’s a part of what some people may mean. > > I also think that our attitude about the mentally ill needs to change. Too many people are too ashamed and/or embarrassed to seek help. And it’s no wonder to me why they might feel that way. > People with problems are laughed at, made fun of, called names, etc. > > So I think it’s a matter of making sure that help is available and not seen as a personality flaw in those who seek it. But I guess I don’t see evidence that the pointing and laughing have gotten worse. We’ve got anti-bullying measures in schools now. Zero tolerance all the way up to more reasonable measures. People are a lot more informed about mental health than they used to be. Yes, there is a stigma to being “crazy”, but it seems to me that many adolescents nowadays are quite familiar with psychiatry and medication. If they aren’t using these services, they know someone who is. The days of Boo Radley being the face of mental illness are long gone. And it is not like this guy’s mother was too ashamed to get him help or talk about his problems. The only thing that makes sense as explanation (to me) is that we’re dealing with the consequences of bringing the Boo Radley’s out from the dark basements and embracing them as “normal people with issues”. No one expected Boo Radley to pull up his big boy pants and compete like a “normal” person back in the day. That’s not the case now. We don’t abandon the emotionally and mentally disabled anymore. We invest in their educations and build up their self-esteems, providing them with nurturing environments, teaching them that if they work hard enough, they’ll have a good life. But then when they become 21, all the special resources get taken from them. They are thrown into the cold “real world” where no one cares how sweet they. And then there’s the internet. I think Facebook alone is responsible for a lot of neuroses today. Without intending to, it feeds into all kinds of negative thinking and feeling. But the other thing about the internet is that it enables you to find the validation you’re looking for, if you’re willing to search hard enough for it. Even if you’re a psycho with fucked up ideas. So I do agree that mental health care could be reformed. Like, maybe some of those special services that are reserved for disabled children should be extended into adulthood. But this wouldn’t be cheap at all. I’m not seeing a lot of gun rights advocates talking about increasing taxes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/65 "2015-10-03T22:35:29Z")
Is there any evidence that other countries have fewer such occurrences because they have better mental health care as opposed to fewer guns? If so, what can we learn from such countries? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/66 "2015-10-03T23:21:52Z")
And if we’re going to help the Boo Radleys, we ought to be able to do so on condition that they be clinically evaluated before own a firearm. It’s not extra work for them, since they’ll already be going to psychological therapy. I didn’t freak out when I had to go to a psychiatrist to make sure I still got my SSI check. Why should I freak out if I have to go to a psychiatrist to make sure I have some basic requirements to handle guns? As for the rest–we could start with sending people like my cousin to actual psychologists for testing instead of just having a case worker talk with her. It’s ridiculous that someone with obvious OCD and schizophrenia attributes who lives in a car (because her house caved in), will only go to the bathroom at McDonald’s and takes two hours to do so, and will not admit she has a problem is considered mentally fit and we cannot get her help. (All they seemed to worry about was whether her mom died of natural causes or not.) We almost lost our house making sure that she could have food to eat. That’s the type of shit that shouldn’t be happening. The inability to take those with obvious mental illnesses who claim they don’t have them to therapy is a huge, huge part of the problem. Because the answer is to get them more help. And, BTW, I know that I should not own a gun that I can actually use. I have an anger management problem. It’s better than it used to be, but I still would not trust myself around a gun. It’s not a fucking right, no matter what a constitution built by people who were afraid of another Revolutionary War thought. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/67 "2015-10-04T00:22:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And if we’re going to help the Boo Radleys, we ought to be able to do so on condition that they be clinically evaluated before own a firearm. It’s not extra work for them, since they’ll already be going to psychological therapy. > > I didn’t freak out when I had to go to a psychiatrist to make sure I still got my SSI check. Why should I freak out if I have to go to a psychiatrist to make sure I have some basic requirements to handle guns? > > As for the rest–we could start with sending people like my cousin to actual psychologists for testing instead of just having a case worker talk with her. It’s ridiculous that someone with obvious OCD and schizophrenia attributes who lives in a car (because her house caved in), will only go to the bathroom at McDonald’s and takes two hours to do so, and will not admit she has a problem is considered mentally fit and we cannot get her help. (All they seemed to worry about was whether her mom died of natural causes or not.) We almost lost our house making sure that she could have food to eat. > > That’s the type of shit that shouldn’t be happening. The inability to take those with obvious mental illnesses who claim they don’t have them to therapy is a huge, huge part of the problem. Because the answer is to get them more help. I endorse all of this 100% ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/68 "2015-10-04T00:51:14Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Should there be an official registry of everyone who has ever had a mental health diagnosis? A database that allows those individuals who “meet the profile” to be…what? Denied their 2nd Amendment rights? Institutionalized indefinitely? Bombarded with GoogleAds advertising psychotropic medication? What exactly are people proposing? The idea of IMPRISONING hundreds of thousands innocent people because they MAY COMMIT crimes scares me. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/69 "2015-10-04T00:56:15Z")
Being originally from USSR I understand what INSTITUTIONALIZATION OF INNOCENT people brings. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/70 "2015-10-04T01:00:44Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Being originally from USSR I understand what INSTITUTIONALIZATION OF INNOCENT people brings. This is the USA not the USSR ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/71 "2015-10-04T01:02:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > This is the USA not the USSR In USA 2015, the Incarceration Rate is as high as it was in USSR during the peak of Stalin’s purges. We should not take any freedom for granted. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/72 "2015-10-04T01:05:21Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > In USA 2015, the Incarceration Rate is as high as it was in USSR during the peak of Stalin’s purges. > > We should not take any freedom for granted. And that is a very startling statistic. But mental health issues are a separate issue, in the USA, in 2015. If you overreact it makes it hard to debate a topic properly, then we have to spend time debunking an overreaction instead of addressing the issue. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/73 "2015-10-04T01:07:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > And that is a very startling statistic. But mental health issues are a separate issue, in the USA, in 2015. > > If you overreact it makes it hard to debate a topic properly, then we have to spend time debunking an overreaction instead of addressing the issue. I apologize. Maybe I have unrealistic fears – I have Asperger’s and Depression. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/74 "2015-10-04T01:12:04Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I apologize. Maybe I have unrealistic fears – I have Asperger’s and Depression. And your fears are very realistic. Well, justified or reasonable at least. But no one is advocating locking up the mentally ill. We may leave them homeless and destitute and hungry, but, we aren’t going to “lock them up” unless they try to rob or store or take of all their clothes in public or some other extreme action. That would cost too much $$$ for the American tax payer to tolerate. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/75 "2015-10-04T01:18:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > And your fears are very realistic. Well, justified or reasonable at least. But no one is advocating locking up the mentally ill. We may leave them homeless and destitute and hungry, but, we aren’t going to “lock them up” unless they try to rob or store or take of all their clothes in public or some other extreme action. That would cost too much $$$ for the American tax payer to tolerate. In Scandinavia, Canada and Australia the state really helps people with mental or physical disability. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/76 "2015-10-04T01:25:07Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > In Scandinavia, Canada and Australia the state really helps people with mental or physical disability. Hint: Some people may be annoyed at the posting in red Yes, other countries certainly do a better job than the USA in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/77 "2015-10-04T09:53:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But I guess I don’t see evidence that the pointing and laughing have gotten worse. > > We’ve got anti-bullying measures in schools now. Zero tolerance all the way up to more reasonable measures. > > People are a lot more informed about mental health than they used to be. Yes, there is a stigma to being “crazy”, but it seems to me that many adolescents nowadays are quite familiar with psychiatry and medication. If they aren’t using these services, they know someone who is. The days of Boo Radley being the face of mental illness are long gone. > > And it is not like this guy’s mother was too ashamed to get him help or talk about his problems. > > The only thing that makes sense as explanation (to me) is that we’re dealing with the consequences of bringing the Boo Radley’s out from the dark basements and embracing them as “normal people with issues”. No one expected Boo Radley to pull up his big boy pants and compete like a “normal” person back in the day. That’s not the case now. We don’t abandon the emotionally and mentally disabled anymore. We invest in their educations and build up their self-esteems, providing them with nurturing environments, teaching them that if they work hard enough, they’ll have a good life. But then when they become 21, all the special resources get taken from them. They are thrown into the cold “real world” where no one cares how sweet they. And then there’s the internet. I think Facebook alone is responsible for a lot of neuroses today. Without intending to, it feeds into all kinds of negative thinking and feeling. > > But the other thing about the internet is that it enables you to find the validation you’re looking for, if you’re willing to search hard enough for it. Even if you’re a psycho with fucked up ideas. > > So I do agree that mental health care could be reformed. Like, maybe some of those special services that are reserved for disabled children should be extended into adulthood. But this wouldn’t be cheap at all. I’m not seeing a lot of gun rights advocates talking about increasing taxes. Well, I’m not sure I agree that the pointing and laughing haven’t gotten worse, if only because these kids _are_ much more exposed than they used to be. I don’t know much about the anti-bullying measures that exist, but I’d argue that they are not always followed, especially outside of class. And maybe they don’t go far enough? “Don’t be mean to the geeky kids” is not the same as “Be nice to and make friends with the geeky kids.” I did happen upon this article this morning. > **[Mental Illness is the wrong scapegoat after mass shootings](https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2014/12/11/mental-illness-wrong-scapegoat-shootings/)** > > An extensive new study by two Vanderbilt University researchers challenges common assumptions about gun violence and mental illness that often emerge in the aftermath of mass shootings. They argue that mental illness is the wrong scapegoat. But they also say this: The authors argue in the paper that lawmakers and voters should pay much more attention to mental health systems such as access to mental health care, medication and health insurance. “In a way, it is a failure of the system often that becomes represented as a failure of the individual,” Metzl said. So, I don’t know. It’s complicated and there is no easy solution. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/78 "2015-10-04T14:02:28Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Well, I’m not sure I agree that the pointing and laughing haven’t gotten worse, if only because these kids _are_ much more exposed than they used to be. I guess for me, I look at the Oregon shooter and I don’t see a “kid”. I see a grown man. I can’t imagine that kids were pointing and laughing at him recently. Maybe internet denizens were pointing and laughing at him. But I point and laugh at internet trolls and wackjobs too. I think most of us have at one time or another. I get into “fights” on various internet fora, always assuming that my opponents are of sound mind. Depending on the forum, I might lobby an insult at them, but I never hold back on calling their arguments “stupid” or “crazy” if that’s how they seem to me. Does this constitute “pointing and laughing”? I wouldn’t say so, but I could see how it would be to someone who is emotionally fragile. I guess I’m not prepared to hold myself back in the midst of battle because my opponent might be tetched. So I don’t really see how we could address “pointing and laughing” without denying everyone of the right to point and laugh at people who deserve that. Maybe the Oregon shooter didn’t deserve pointing and laughing, but I can’t allow myself to assume that’s what set him off. It isn’t inconceivable that he had paranoid tendencies and that he suffered from the same self-defeating delusions that many socially anxious have. A person doesn’t have to actually be persecuted to feel persecuted. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/79 "2015-10-04T15:12:02Z")
Here is [an interesting article in the NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/us/mass-murderers-fit-profile-as-do-many-others-who-dont-kill.html?ref=us) today on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379/80 "2015-10-04T16:55:04Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Is it really a civil right? Should there be no limits to the 2nd amendment? Would you want, for example, a delusional person flying an airplane with 250 passengers?.. It depends on the illusion. If a pilot has a delusion that they are an accomplished piano player, that doesn’t have a rational connection with flying safety. If their delusion is that they have a team of angels following them that will catch the plane if the pilot falls asleep at the controls, then maybe that is reason for grounding. > [@monstro](#): > > No, it means we’re trying to fix one problem (a small number of crazy people shooting everybody up) by creating another problem (now _everyone_ is discouraged from seeking mental health care because no one wants to lose their civil rights)…? This is a huge problem in the world of sexual abuse prevention. There is a multi-million dollar industry in providing court-ordered therapy to persons convicted of sexual crimes in the hopes that the therapy will prevent future crimes, but there is almost nothing available to identify, screen, and treat people who have not (yet) committed sexual crimes, but are at risk to do so. How would you feel if governments started setting up “sexual abuse risk assessment checkpoints” around town and you had to stop and talk to a psychiatrist in order to get through them? “Sorry sir, in order to enter the neighborhood of West Podunk, you must take a personality test to gauge how much of a risk you are to West Podunk children and whether or not treatment would reduce this risk. Step over here where Dr. PervHunter will probe your thoughts and dreams…\…Ok sir, it looks like your risk level is 7%. I will give you a 72 hour permit to enter West Podunk, but you must promptly make an appointment with an abuse prevention counselor and submit a satisfactory progress in risk reduction report from him in order to renew your permit.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-people-who-advocate-mental-health-reforms-as-a-solution-to-mass-shootings-really-envision/733379.md?page=5)