# What do prisoners deserve? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135 "2003-08-19T04:37:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/21 "2003-08-20T13:20:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > **Socializing (time with other inmates)?** Permit me, if I may, to focus down on this one. I have often thought of starting a thread on this subject. To this question I answer, hell no! Why on earth would we ever want to let prisoners interact with other prisoners? I say, you should spend your whole sentence without ever even _seeing_ another prisoner, much less having enough of an interaction to exchange shiv-making tips or get anally raped or in any other way contribute to the creation of a prison culture. They have to eat…feed 'em in the cells. They want to excercise? Let 'em do push-ups. Visitors from the outside? That’s fine. But I think the standard should be, no prisoner to prisoner interaction at all. I see very little good that can come of such a thing, and a lot of bad. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/22 "2003-08-20T13:40:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weird\_AL\_Einstein \* > \*\*Permit me, if I may, to focus down on this one. I have often thought of starting a thread on this subject. To this question I answer, hell no! Why on earth would we ever want to let prisoners interact with other prisoners? I say, you should spend your whole sentence without ever even _seeing_ another prisoner, much less having enough of an interaction to exchange shiv-making tips or get anally raped or in any other way contribute to the creation of a prison culture. > > They have to eat…feed 'em in the cells. They want to excercise? Let 'em do push-ups. Visitors from the outside? That’s fine. But I think the standard should be, no prisoner to prisoner interaction at all. I see very little good that can come of such a thing, and a lot of bad. \*\* Social isolation can drive a person insane. Frankly, the last thing you want is crazy criminals being released when their sentances are up. Most prisoners, after all, are short-termers who \* will \* be released. Secondly, most prisons are not set up for isolating each inmate. The one in which my husband works is dormitary-style. Hundreds of prisoners sleep in one large room with bunk beds. To retro-fit this prison with individual cells, sinks and toilets would be astronomically expensive. Third, prsions currently use isolation or “the hole” as a means of punishment. How do you punish a man who has no privledges? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/23 "2003-08-20T13:45:28Z")
Little Nemo and Psycho\_Pachik Vampire have done a great job of explaining how prisoners are currently treated in Texas and New York, and I’d like to thank them for such illuminating posts. I was also wondering if they think this is how prisoners SHOULD be treated – or do you see any flaws in the system that could use fixing? I also don’t think either program described addresses rehabilitation issues with any real rigor, though New York’s seems slightly ahead in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/24 "2003-08-20T13:49:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\* > In order to complete some programs, the inmate must admit his guilt. A lot of inmates refuse to do so, either because of the reason above, or because they fear it may jeapordize their chances for successful appeal. > \*\* Or maybe because they’re not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/25 "2003-08-20T13:57:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ludovic \* > \*\*Or maybe because they’re not guilty. \*\* Everyone in prison is technically guilty, whether or not they actually did the crime. That sounds cold, I know, but it’s reality. I can see the frustration that a man who has been wrongly imprisoned must feel in a situation like that. It really is one of those damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t quandries. However, most inmates claim to be innocent. Making an exception for every single one of them is not feasible. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/26 "2003-08-20T14:32:35Z")
Prison is a punishment meant to take away **freedom**. Confinement is the punishment. Allowing prisoners to watch television or socialize in some way is keeping them human, relative to those of us that remain free, because a great number of these humans will be free again. If prison is easy for some people, it isn’t because we’re doing it wrong, but because their lives are so fucked up that their freedom to act on their wills is reduced to the point of not being a great difference from prison. All they lose is regular contact with people they know. Think about giving up your freedom, your job, contact with your family and friends and significant other. Think of giving up your material possessions that can’t be taken up by the people you know (after all, you can’t pay for storage forever, you don’t have a job!). Think of giving up your freedom. Does the ability to play basketball with people you don’t even know and watch television really replace all that? If so, then we know the prudent course for all college-bound students is to go to jail and get a free education. 😉 For people who think it isn’t so bad to be in prison, what must their lives be like? IMO prison is more or less where it should be, but I think that prisoners need a way to earn and save money to make an easier transition back into society. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/27 "2003-08-20T14:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > **In order to complete some programs, the inmate must admit his guilt. A lot of inmates refuse to do so, either because of the reason above, or because they fear it may jeapordize their chances for successful appeal.** Of course this theory is extremely stressful for the occasional innocent prisoner. Or the prisoner who honestly does not feel his behavior was wrong, and who has a point, such as the many drug war victims in our prisons. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/28 "2003-08-20T14:50:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*Everyone in prison is technically guilty, whether or not they actually did the crime. That sounds cold, I know, but it’s reality. > > I can see the frustration that a man who has been wrongly imprisoned must feel in a situation like that. It really is one of those damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t quandries. > > However, most inmates claim to be innocent. Making an exception for every single one of them is not feasible. \*\* Doesn’t sound cold. Sounds purposefully dumb. Just because you ignore the possibility that prisoners might be innocent does not mean the issue isn’t real. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/29 "2003-08-20T14:54:23Z")
I appreciate the view, **Evil Captor** , but I don’t see how a justice system is supposed to adjust its chosen punishments based on the idea that it can make mistakes. Rather the focus should be on recognizing and compensating for those mistakes than changing the punishments. ---
**Author:** ![MusicJunkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@MusicJunkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicJunkie)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/30 "2003-08-20T15:20:48Z")
Regarding the OP. Why on Earth shouldn’t prisioners get access to legal books? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/31 "2003-08-20T16:53:19Z")
I think the what the OP meant to say by “for entertainment, not legal” was “of course we have to give them access to law books and legal materials, but should we give them access to books for entertainment only?” ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/32 "2003-08-20T22:14:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\*I appreciate the view, **Evil Captor** , but I don’t see how a justice system is supposed to adjust its chosen punishments based on the idea that it can make mistakes. Rather the focus should be on recognizing and compensating for those mistakes than changing the punishments. \*\* For one, they should indeed change the punishments: by eliminating the death penalty. Now, I don’t mean to hijack a hijack 😉 but not only is the death penalty pretty hard to take back if you make a mistake, but it also, IMHO, adversely impacts those who are NOT guilty. The recent study of a state where an extremely large number of those on death row were wrongly convicted (as in, at least whopiing administrative errors if not outright innocence,) MIGHT lead one to believe that an extremely large proportion of our criminals, even those destined for the _final punishment_, are not guilty. I, however, wouldn’t take it that far. I would, however, hypothesize that people who are NOT guilty are, in the sentencing phase, are less likely to seem contrite and sorry for what they “did”, since it their case, they did nothing. Therefore, the jury and or judge tends to throw the book at them and disproportionately apply the death penalty. So, the death penalty AND selective programs based on admission of guilt are both instances of way the justice system skews in favor of the actually guilty, punishing the innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/33 "2003-08-20T22:38:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*Doesn’t sound cold. Sounds purposefully dumb. Just because you ignore the possibility that prisoners might be innocent does not mean the issue isn’t real. \*\* Was the “you” refering personally to me, or to the justice system? 'Cause if you meant I was ignoring the possibility of wrongful incarceration, I beg to differ. Nothing could be more tragic than losing years of your life, the respect of your friends/family, and future career opprotunities because of something you didn’t do. It pains me to think of it, but I understand the perspective that corrections professionals must have. Corrections professionals cannot make a personal judgement on whether or not the inmate is truly guilty. They are not investigators or court officials, and, most of the time, do not know the full details of the case. They must accept the judgement of the state and treat the inmate accordingly. Prison staff should not be second-guessing the court system and deciding that, for example, an inmate doesn’t need a program because they \* feel \* he’s not guilty. I’m sure many of them have a hard time with it, and may secretly feel that a certain conviction wasn’t justified, but they must follow the rules. Prison is not a place in which exceptions can be made. It’s dangerous to do so. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/34 "2003-08-21T00:30:49Z")
**Ludovic** , good point, I hadn’t thought of the death penalty. I am still in my idealistic world where it doesn’t exist. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/35 "2003-08-21T02:33:56Z")
Some sobering stats about prisons and prisoners: > [@](#): > > [Cite](http://www.november.org/stayinfo/breaking/Growing.html): > America’s prison population grew again in 2002 despite a declining crime rate, costing the federal government and states an estimated $40 billion a year at a time of rampant budget shortfalls. A record 2.1 million people were in federal, state or local custody at the end of 2002. > > Experts say mandatory sentences, especially for nonviolent drug offenders, are a major reason inmate populations have risen for 30 years. > > About one of every 143 U.S. residents was in the federal, state or local custody at year’s end. > > Drug offenders now make up more than half of all federal prisoners. > [@](#): > > [Cite](http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~kastor/private/privatize.html): > The creation of a prison-industrial complex is one the most disturbing things going on. Note there is no contradiction between the facts that prisons are both hugely expensive and very profitable. Just like with military spending, the cost is public cost and the profits are private profits: it’s yet another way of funneling public money into the pockets of the few. **"However, most inmates claim to be innocent. "** > [@](#): > > How many times have you heard the phrase, “All of them say they are innocent,” or, “All convicts lie,” in your life? > > Statistically 93% of all prisoners plead guilty to their crimes in open court. The numbers of prisoners incarcerated for the crime of perjury are insignificant. Maybe one out of a thousand, if that. > > The United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, (DOJBJS), admits that statistically 8% to 12% of all state prisoners are either actually or factually innocent. The DOJBJS finds that 4% of all federal prisoners are either actually or factually innocent. > > The mean of 8 to 12 percent is 10%. There are 1,550,000 State prisoners in the United States. 10% of that number is 155,000 innocent people. There are 450,000 federal prisoners. 4% of that number is 18,000 innocent people. 155,000 + 18,000 = 173,000. > > As you read this article, somewhere down the road from you an innocent man or woman sits on a prison bunk, as I am right now, looking in despair at concrete walls and steel. Across this nation, as you read this article, 173,000 innocent men and women sit in prisons and jails. > > I know, it would never happen to you, so why should you care? Well, I never thought it would happen to me either. For full text of the above, and some reasons for the discrepancy in the number of guilty pleas: [“Once you are Accused”](http://www.prisonerlife.com/articles/articleID=34.cfm). Note this doesn’t address the issue of non-violent drug offenders, who are technically guilty. It also doesn’t address the larger issue of the prison industrial complex. But “one out of 143” scares the hell out of me. And they’re building more prisons. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/36 "2003-08-21T03:22:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*Was the “you” refering personally to me, or to the justice system? \*\* For the record it was a generic “you.” I just think it would be extremely painful to go through the injustice you described, then get browbeaten into admitting to a crime you didn’t commit, on pain of being denied parole. Kinda fiendish, really. And I know corrections people can’t second-guess the justice system, but it still sucks on ice. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/37 "2003-08-21T03:34:10Z")
> [@](#): > > ## \*Originally posted by erislover \* \*\*Prison is a punishment meant to take away **freedom**. Confinement is the punishment. Allowing prisoners to watch television or socialize in some way is keeping them human, relative to those of us that remain free, because a great number of these humans will be free again. > > Think about giving up your freedom, your job, contact with your family and friends and significant other… Think of giving up your freedom. Does the ability to play basketball with people you don’t even know and watch television really replace all that? \*\* No it does not, and I have to assume, **erislover** , that you have either been in prison, or are very close to someone who has. This kind of insight comes only from one who’s been there. If this is not the case, then you are unbelievably perceptive. Lack of freedom is something you simply cannot fathom unless you’ve experienced it. I’m not talking about a night in the county drunk tank, I’m talking about many months or years of having your freedom taken away. I was one of the lucky ones. First time, non-violent drug offense. Twenty-one months courtesy of Uncle Sam. Fifteen months in prison, four months in a halfway house, and two months of home confinement. In the federal system, much is the same as **Little Nemo** and **Psycho** have articulated (you don’t mind if I call you Psycho, do you? Reminds me of…). Anyway, what is different in the fed system is that the prisons themselves are either minimum, medium, or maximum security. There is little mixing of the “bad” and the “good”. You have to earn a spot in a minimum security camp, and if you aren’t “good”, you’re gone in a heartbeat. A camp is where I was placed originally because of my status, and my _relatively_ short sentence. It was an old college campus in the middle of a residential neighborhood. It had an ornamental wrought-iron fence around the perimeter, and we actually had to cross a residential street (and watch for cars) when going to chow. Was it nice and comfy? Sure. We had a track, weight equipment, a full size gym, hell, we even had electric guitars and drum sets. But it was still a prison, and they still locked the door behind you at night. I saw my wife once a month, and my kids even less because of the distance. Don’t underestimate the deterrant effect that lack of freedom instills in a person, regardless of the how comfortable it is. Country club? I don’t think so. I still have nightmares of being “in-house”. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/38 "2003-08-21T03:55:32Z")
I think what they deserve is to get a job and have to pay to make restitution. If you steal my watch, you can go to prison, and that’s great, but I’m still without my watch. My mother worked at the local prison, and they have a golf course. Now why would this deter someone? That said, I don’t know why street people don’t just hold up a 7-11 to go to prison, where they are at least given three meals a day. Wouldn’t that be better than living on the street? ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/39 "2003-08-21T04:08:37Z")
> [@](#): > > My mother worked at the local prison, and they have a golf course. Now why would this deter someone? I would like to know a little more about this prison, and just how much access the inmates actually had to the “golf course”. In any case, perhaps my post above can give you a little insight. Just hope that someone you love doesn’t make a mistake, you would then learn quickly what I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/40 "2003-08-21T05:14:05Z")
> [@](#): > > America’s prison population grew again in 2002 despite a declining crime rate But this statement could be rewritten as “The crime rate has declined due to America’s growing prison population.” After all, one of the main reasons people are incarcerated is to prevent crimes. So it’s certainly arguable that increased incarceration rates leads to a reduced crime rate. > [@](#): > > The United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, (DOJBJS), admits that statistically 8% to 12% of all state prisoners are either actually or factually innocent. The DOJBJS finds that 4% of all federal prisoners are either actually or factually innocent. What is the difference between being actually innocent and factually innocent? I assume people who are actually innocent did not commit the crime they were found guilty of. From this, I’m assuming people who are factually innocent did commit the crime they were accused of but might have been found not guilty under some circumstances. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135.md?page=3)