# What do prisoners deserve? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135 "2003-08-19T04:37:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/41 "2003-08-21T08:06:30Z")
What different jobs do they do? Would some ordinary citizen be doing these jobs if they weren’t being done inside a prison? or is it all prison laundry/prison kitchen? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/42 "2003-08-21T13:16:23Z")
It’s in the link, **nemo**. FTR, that link made me even more cynical of the justice system than I was before :eek:. In order to get rid of this extreme bias towards “clearing the slate” of cases rather than pursuing justice, _as per the justice system’s name_, we should let go of our punishments on victimless crimes ASAP. To answer the OP, prisoners who are guilty of violent felonies or grand larceny or the equivalents do not “deserve” any of the niceties we currently allow them. They don’t even deserve to live. You heard me right, I believe that even a “mere” rapist or thief deserves to die. Yet I am anti-death penalty since the truth of the matter is so hard to ascertain. Yet, we should still provide these things to prisoners, since it will save money by improving inmate health, reducing inmate violence and possibly reducing inmate resentment/psychological health once they are released. I don’t buy the argument that it will increase crime by providing less of a deterrent: I don’t think most criminals would do a crime if they knew they were going to jail anyway: they do it thinking they won’t be caught. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/43 "2003-08-21T14:07:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MaryEFoo \* > \*\*What different jobs do they do? > > Would some ordinary citizen be doing these jobs if they weren’t being done inside a prison? or is it all prison laundry/prison kitchen? \*\* At the prison in which my husband works, the inmates have quite a few job options. There’s an office furniture assembly factory which supplies desks and the like to state agencies (not sold to the public.) They can work on the prison farm, or raise seeing-eye dogs for the blind. They can work as porters or janitors, or in the prison kitchen as a cook. There’s also a re-upholstering factory where the inmates learn how to re-cover furniture. Some with artistic talent are employed as sign-makers. They can also learn landscaping, and, depending on the nature of their crime, work in the community doing gardening work. The list goes on. There’s also a factory which can give jobs to inmates after they’ve been released. All of these programs are designed to give job training to an inmate who had no marketable skills previously. The hope is that is that by giving them employment prospects, they won’t need to turn to crime to support themselves. ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/44 "2003-08-21T17:20:59Z")
Ask question first, look up prior cites second: From **annaplurabelle** ’s cites, prisoners are sewing garments that are sold in the Orient, and doing other jobs that compete with outside labor at a very low cost. This is an issue to me, but unfortunately it’s a hijack, so I’ll drop it. ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/45 "2003-08-21T17:46:11Z")
"In the past 20 years, while serious crime rates have remained relatively stable, the incarceration rate has more than doubled. " From **annaplurabelle** ’s again, [link](http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~kastor/private/prison-labor.html) In other words, imprisoning twice the number has not proportionately reduced the crime rate. ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/46 "2003-08-21T18:41:36Z")
Back to what they deserve, they are humans, treat them as humans. Humans can be dangerous and difficult, so the physical prison and CO’s have to be built and prepared for that. If you believe in measured punishment (big crime more punishment, lesser crime less), the easiest way is to measure it in time. Same number of hours in a day for everyone. If you believe in ‘trimmings’ determined by the warden, then when the warden moves on, the punishment changes–it’s determined by bureaucrat’s personality, not the criminal’s actions. If you believe in keeping the public safe, lock-up keeps offenders away from you and me, for x time. Measured punishment keeps scarier guys locked away longer. Also for keeping the public safe, typically it is young males that are the most dangerous. After they are in their thirties, the crime rate drops. They’ve served their terms, they get out, if they make it through the first year outside the risk is much reduced. If you believe in the marriage having a chance of continuing, the kids having some connection with their father, the father having some future living in society with a job and friends, how do you handle it? The cites give the numbers of man and woman inmates. So, the kids having some connection with their mother, the mother having some future with a job and friends, how do you handle it? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/47 "2003-08-21T18:43:00Z")
Working in a prison I think I have some insight. Prisoners should only get what they earn. ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/48 "2003-08-21T20:28:46Z")
There’s a light-hearted thread on stealing in IMHO right now. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/49 "2003-08-21T21:33:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MaryEFoo \* > \*\*There’s a light-hearted thread on stealing in IMHO right now. \*\* Linky-poo? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/50 "2003-08-22T07:13:10Z")
I think the most impartial thing I can say about the article in that link is that it presents one side of the issue. For the record, New York has never had any privately operated prisons and prison-built products can only be sold to government or non-profit organizations. One other issue that was made was that inmates should be treated differently based on their crimes. That’s not how it works. As far as the prison is concerned it doesn’t matter if you’re a marijuana smoker or a serial killer; your privileges inside will be based on your behavior inside. I’ve known several multiple murderers who never caused a problem in prison. And one of the worst inmates I’ve ever met was doing time for minor burglary charges. Usually, we don’t know or care what the inmate’s original crime was. ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/51 "2003-08-22T07:31:22Z")
Oh, er, ah, [linky-poo.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=204853&highlight=expensive+AND+steal) Hem. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/52 "2003-08-22T19:46:17Z")
It’s not about what \* prisoners \* deserve as it is what society deserves or needs or should strive for, and that’s productive, peaceful citizens. Anything that helps acheive that end is a good. Therefore prisoners should be treated decently, protected from each other, get an education if they need one, have access to mental and physical health care, etc. Whatever it takes, and if people don’t like it because it doesn’t satisfy their desire to see “punishment” inflicted, too damn bad. ---
**Author:** ![SAustinTx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/57b2e6/32.png) [@SAustinTx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SAustinTx)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/53 "2003-08-23T01:23:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by benthames \* > \*\*I firmly believe that a lack of education is a contributing factor to crime, and think all inmates who have not completed high school should have to earn a high school equivalent diploma as a condition of their release. > > \*\* Is this not already a requirement, at least in some states? I’m on probation for a DWI I got two years ago (first offense, so no possibility of actually doing time) in Texas and as part of the process I have to either prove I graduated high school or go through a program to get my GED. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/54 "2003-08-23T02:07:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Is this not already a requirement, at least in some states? IIRC, in the federal system, if you walk in without a high school diploma you walk out with GED. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/55 "2003-08-23T02:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Isabelle \* > Prisoners don’t deserve squat. Give them a “safe” place and that is that. The second part of your paragraph is in opposition to the first part. > [@](#): > > I think there should be ONE non-denominational church service on Sundays and if they want to practice religon let them do it in this forum. There are so many religions (and some prisoners invent their own) so to keep it to one type serves the purpose. Actually, it doesn’t. There are plenty of religions which have conflicting statements regarding belief and what’s acceptable as a means of worship that your idea of forcing people into a “one size fits all” thing doesn’t work. There’s also the bit about it being mandated on Sunday. Some people have religions which require them to live that religion every day of their lives, not just “Once a year” or “Twice a year.” > [@](#): > > They should be able to get their high school education but not to go to college. That’s just absurd. If they are qualified to handle college level work, then they should be permitted to provided they have an interest in so doing and that there is a program available. > [@](#): > > It is not fair that I as a single parent am struggling to send my daughter to college. A child that has never broken the law. I can’t find grant money to get her there yet my tax dollars pay for prisoners to get their degrees in jail. “Your tax dollars” also pay for others to get degrees. I’m pretty sure I’m included in that since I’m receiving an education partially funded by the Federal and State governments. At any rate, “your tax dollars” go for a lot of things, and your contribution towards one prisoner’s education may not even amount to 1/100 of a cent. The options they should have for collegiate education should be: [ul][li]In prison extension of local community college or state or city college/university.[/li][li]Work-release with attendance at local community college or state or city college/university in lieu of work.[/li][li]Courses by mail from local community college or state or city college/university.[/li][li]Similar courses from whatever school they can afford on their own.[/ul][/li]All who attend these should be charged the same as other residents of their state. GED, on the other hand, I think should be free. > [@](#): > > They should have access to mail. That is inhumane. Just because someone’s in prison does not mean that they are not human with a human family. > [@](#): > > There should be a library. Why bother with this when you don’t want them to learn? > [@](#): > > No tv. This is a privaledge Privilege. And it’s not necessarily one. Television can be used to educate. But we’re back to that little bit, hey. > [@](#): > > No smoking. This is a privaledge It’s an addiction. I agree that there should not be any tobacco in the prison–and that should include the guards and other staff also! No tobacco products on the premises. That way it’s one less thing for the guards to get sucked into corruption and one less thing for the prisoners to barter. > [@](#): > > No sports equipment. This is a privaledge Or perhaps it’s a mean of maintaining their health. After all, the prisoners actually are humans and the government has a responsibility to protect them while they are incarcerated. > [@](#): > > They should be taught a trade in jail. This would rehabilitate those that can be and want to be. Please provide citations from peer reviewed studies which support this sweeping assertion. > [@](#): > > They should get “basic” medical treatment no elective care. > Why should my tax dollars pay for this. It’s not fair that I have to pay for insurance premiums and co-pays and they are offered free care. See above about “your tax dollars.” I don’t recall any prisons that provide elective medical treatment, so, if you don’t mind, please enlighten me as to which ones do. I think for this one, you really do need to provide a specific case. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/56 "2003-08-23T03:59:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > See above about “your tax dollars.” I don’t recall any prisons that provide elective medical treatment, so, if you don’t mind, please enlighten me as to which ones do. I think for this one, you really do need to provide a specific case. What about [_this_](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/946870/posts)? ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/57 "2003-08-23T04:11:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*What about [_this_](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/946870/posts)? \*\* What about it? > [@](#): > > The judge made clear that he is \*\*not \*\*ordering a sex change or a specific medical regimen for Mark L. Brooks, a/k/a Jessica M. Lewis. Rather, he is requiring the state to provide medical and psychiatric services to determine the appropriate course of action. (Bolding mine) He has ordered psychiatric evaluation and treatment for the inmate, which I don’t think is elective in any way. Getting the mental-health help he needs is not a guarantee that the psychiatrists will recommend the procedure. Most likely, they won’t. All the judge was saying is that if the state is willing to \*continue \* a sex-change procedure if it’s begun before incarceration, then it’s unfair to deny the inmate the right to \*start \* it on the inside. The probable outcome of this is that the state will simply revise their policies and decree that they will henceforth not continue sex-change procedures in order to make everything fair. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/58 "2003-08-23T04:28:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RoundGuy \* > No it does not, and I have to assume, **erislover** , that you have either been in prison, or are very close to someone who has. This kind of insight comes only from one who’s been there. If this is not the case, then you are unbelievably perceptive. While I would love to claim the perception, I was close to someone who served several years for selling drugs. I also spent the weekend in county but that hardly compares. > [@](#): > > Lack of freedom is something you simply cannot fathom unless you’ve experienced it. I’m not talking about a night in the county drunk tank, I’m talking about many months or years of having your freedom taken away. I think such an experience cannot really be shared, you’re right. My weekend lock-up was pretty much nothing, I missed one day of work and had some explanations to give, big deal. But I did ask my friend quite a few pointed questions and what I gathered was that cable television and card games are not all they’re cracked up to be by those who think prisons are too soft. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/59 "2003-08-23T13:35:21Z")
> [@](#): > > what I gathered was that cable television and card games are not all they’re cracked up to be by those who think prisons are too soft. That is certainly an understatement. You know, I’ve heard the “soft” argument many times, and I’ve heard many times, including in this thread, the argument that _many_ inmates have a better life in prison than out on the streets. If this is the case, then there should be _many_ inmates who request to remain in prison after their release dates, right? Yeah, right. ---
**Author:** ![Snite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Snite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snite)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135/60 "2003-08-23T16:27:20Z")
That’s right, I did forget to express my personal views, didn’t I? Okay, here we go: In many ways I agree with TDCJ, and in many ways, I don’t. One way that I don’t is a policy on their meals: they get twenty minutes. Now, if we gave inmates(I’m sorry, offenders) if we gave inmates twenty minutes, we’d be serving chow all day. Literally. It already takes four hours to feed chow and that’s with cutting their eating time down to five minutes and dealing with them bitching at us about it. Twenty minutes is crippling to us because when we run out of room in the chow hall, we have to make more and the offenders refuse to move saying that they have twenty minutes to eat. It’s like the state kicked us in the shins. Five minutes is plenty of time, and that’s what the units need. Another way I disagree is how much weaker they’ve made the system. I’ve only been working as a CO for a few months now, but I do know that a few years ago if an inmate(whoops, there’s that dirty word again) was giving you a hard time, you could slap him and make him do what he was supposed to. Now, thanks to legislative law defining offenders as helpless and defenseless, if I accidentally brush past an offender on the narrow walkways we have, he could report it as an unprovoked use of force. Fortuneatly, they’re not stupid enough to do so. There’s no room to manuever on the runways. But it’s also made us weaker in dealing with the inmates. They break a lot of the rules and get away with it because too many officers don’t feel like doing the paperwork to write them a case. TDCJ is weaker. Hmm, I’d go on, but I realize my views have more to do with running a prison system than what the inmates actually deserve. I think that the programs we have in place are fine for rehabilitation. Also, I agree that by teaching them discipline inside the prison, they might just keep it once they get out. I also agree with the custody level for behaviour. I also think that prison should be a place you don’t want to go to, for reasons other than seperation anxiety or the fact that it’s a prison, but I don’t have any solutions to those problems. Psychopachik Vampire [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-prisoners-deserve/196135.md?page=4)