# What do righties have against the ACLU? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2008, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257 "2008-04-07T01:02:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/381 "2011-06-02T21:27:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But there’s not much to debate. The Religious Right wants prayer in schools. The ACLU is against that. The Religious Right wants to end abortion, the ACLU wants to defend the right to have abortions. The Religious Right wants to prevent gay marriage and gay civil rights protections, the ACLU wants gays to marry and be protected by anti-discrimination laws. The Religious Right wants to ban pornography, the ACLU wants to protect the right to sell or watch porn. Most of the positions the religious right supports, the ACLU opposes and vice versa. Why wouldn’t they dislike them? The OP is not limited to the Religious Right. I’m a righty by this board’s standards, an atheist, and as noted above, I was (and still am) willing to work for the ACLU. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/382 "2011-06-02T21:29:01Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > The OP is not limited to the Religious Right. I’m a righty by this board’s standards, an atheist, and as noted above, I was (and still am) willing to work for the ACLU. That just tells us you have no principles. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mcfirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@mcfirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcfirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/383 "2011-06-02T21:29:48Z")
Hi, again. I did not ask to generate anything, and I guess if I thought I’d generate anything, it would be derision. You didn’t ask for anything but my (or a “rightie’s”) reason for thinking the ACLU anti-Christian. I am not for forcing anyone to listen to Christian teaching, except in the sense of people out in society making conversation. You shouldn’t have the right to force me to stop talking just because you don’t like my message, and I shouldn’t have the right to do that, either. Force is different, but allowing a child to have free speech about a forbidden topic (Jesus) is not a violation of the establishment clause. Teaching Transcendental Meditation at school is, and Wayne Dyer teaching sorcery on still-somewhat public TV is. I don’t see the interest in stopping those. I don’t like to infringe on rights. I hate “converso” Christianity with a passion, much more than you, probably, because you get so angry with people who disagree; you shout them down. I hate anyone being forced to “confess.” I hate the Religious Right movement. But you guys won’t let me play because I am a Christian; I am supposed to stay over there and be the villain, like I’m supposed to. There is no confusion as long as we all know our places and labels; when the labels change meaning, just change your mind on the issues, because it is the label that counts. It gains you respect and camaraderie. I am going to try to post a couple of more things, then i am out of here. I have to get my iPod to quit holding on to the emailed version I tried to send to access on this library computer (that’s right; I am a loser. Or something) so I can either post it from iPod or otherwise. Then, it is all yours I was looking for the charter document online when I saw that it was nowhere to be found, yet it might be somewhere in the millions of links, I guess. Then I saw this page, and decided to post my reply. I did not see that it was closed. I am new to boards. and forums. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/384 "2011-06-02T21:35:01Z")
The ACLU defended Ollie North in his trial on the basis that the testimony against him was coerced. They won for him. They defended the rights for Christian athletes to post the 10 commandments of their lockers. In Washington State they fought to remove blocks put on library computers that stopped access to pro gun sites. The ACLU does not just fight for lefty causes. They are not anti religion. they just fight for separation of church and state. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/385 "2011-06-02T21:37:27Z")
> [@mcfirefly](#): > > You didn’t ask for anything but my (or a “rightie’s”) reason for thinking the ACLU anti-Christian. I am not for forcing anyone to listen to Christian teaching, except in the sense of people out in society making conversation. You shouldn’t have the right to force me to stop talking just because you don’t like my message, and I shouldn’t have the right to do that, either. Force is different, but allowing a child to have free speech about a forbidden topic (Jesus) is not a violation of the establishment clause. Except that’s not what the ACLU or anyone else is doing. They are keeping students from having the locally favored religion from being forced on them, that’s all. > [@mcfirefly](#): > > I don’t like to infringe on rights. I hate “converso” Christianity with a passion, much more than you, probably, because you get so angry with people who disagree; you shout them down. Asking people for evidence isn’t “shouting them down”. You really do come across as a rightwinger; someone used to only preaching to the choir, and who isn’t used to talking to people who argue back. > [@mcfirefly](#): > > But you guys won’t let me play because I am a Christian; I am supposed to stay over there and be the villain, like I’m supposed to. And Christian Persecution Complex strikes again! ---
**Author:** ![justanotherdeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/77aa72/32.png) [@justanotherdeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justanotherdeaf)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/386 "2011-06-02T21:42:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9659385&posted=1#post9659385) about a Muslim civil rights case in a prison, a couple of posters have offered up a couple of snarky comments about the ACLU and implied that it is in some way anti-Christian or in some other way unsavory. > > I’ve often heard conservatives bashing the ACLU, but I’ve never heard a clear explanation as to what is supposed to be so terrible about them. So enlighten me, righties. What do you have against an organization which fights for YOUR civil rights? Does anybody want to defend the meme that they’re anti-Christian? > I suspect that no one will be able to articulate any convincing argument for why the ACLU should be viewed in a negative light. Prove me wrong. If they weren’t against ACLU , then we wouldn’t have ACLU in the first place. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mcfirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@mcfirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcfirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/387 "2011-06-02T21:58:27Z")
And you sound like a bunch of trained manipulators; what is it called, agent provocateurs–there’s another word. I have plenty of experience with them. I am probably older than any of you, and I have been yanked around by left _and_ right and been co-opted against my will far more. I will post a couple more things if I can get my ipod to work right. We believing Christians take the rap for unbelieving religionists who love to control other pwople. Make your accusations alk you want. I have plenty of experience with your like. Thanks, Captain America, for your reasonableness. Are you the captain America on LA Marzulli’s site? Just asking. Anyway, spending more time here is a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![mcfirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@mcfirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcfirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/388 "2011-06-02T22:01:58Z")
I really hate to “come off” as a right-winger, but if you love your bias and conform to typical right-left dialectically controlled thinking, I guess that is the price I have to pay. Have fun soaking in your hot tub. ---
**Author:** ![mcfirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@mcfirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcfirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/389 "2011-06-02T22:09:13Z")
The ACLU never defended me, and never even showed any sympathy for the truly egregious treatment of my family or myself. So run and tell Nietzsche, because resentment does surface and enter into it. Nothing but contemptuous smirks. Still I am willing to try to see them in the light of the good they do. I am not going to give them my confidence. Why do you have to be 100% uncritical in order to not be an enemy? ---
**Author:** ![mcfirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@mcfirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcfirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/390 "2011-06-02T22:10:17Z")
Oh yeah. Straw man. ---
**Author:** ![mcfirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@mcfirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcfirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/391 "2011-06-02T22:12:42Z")
‘If “they” weren’t against the ACLU, we wouldn’t have an ACLU in the first place.’ “They.” ---
**Author:** ![mcfirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@mcfirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcfirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/392 "2011-06-02T22:17:42Z")
Christian persecution complex: for a snapshot, search the terms “Barbara Marx Hubbard” and “2012.” See especially YouTube or anything else with live, recent comments. Yes, I am in there, spreading my ugly venom against apparent plans to murder half the human race–but us especially, 'cause we’re incapable of evolving into part of God. ---
**Author:** ![mcfirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@mcfirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcfirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/393 "2011-06-02T22:22:50Z")
I want the same kind of prayer in schools that someone up there pointed out we already have: real, heart-felt, and not led by school officials. Without the taint of official religion. ---
**Author:** ![justanotherdeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/77aa72/32.png) [@justanotherdeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justanotherdeaf)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/394 "2011-06-02T22:40:22Z")
> [@mcfirefly](#): > > ‘If “they” weren’t against the ACLU, we wouldn’t have an ACLU in the first place.’ > > “They.” Were u correcting my grammar. Sorry, I am a product of verbally speaking only deaf in public school (i tried to tell people but they think i write so well, glad you were honest) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/395 "2011-06-02T22:48:57Z")
> [@mcfirefly](#): > > And you sound like a bunch of trained manipulators; what is it called, agent provocateurs–there’s another word. Illuminati? Freemasons? Lizard people? MIB? > [@mcfirefly](#): > > Christian persecution complex: for a snapshot, search the terms “Barbara Marx Hubbard” and “2012.” See especially YouTube or anything else with live, recent comments. Yes, I am in there, spreading my ugly venom against apparent plans to murder half the human race–but us especially, 'cause we’re incapable of evolving into part of God. :rolleyes: No, no persecution fantasies here, move along… > [@mcfirefly](#): > > The ACLU never defended me, and never even showed any sympathy for the truly egregious treatment of my family or myself. So run and tell Nietzsche, because resentment does surface and enter into it. Nothing but contemptuous smirks. More claims of persecution, and an out of the blue mention of Nietzsche. I’ve no idea what you even think you are getting at with the latter. > [@mcfirefly](#): > > I want the same kind of prayer in schools that someone up there pointed out we already have: real, heart-felt, and not led by school officials. Without the taint of official religion. Which the ACLU and school official aren’t interested in stopping, regardless of rightwing Christian paranoid fantasies to the contrary. You can pray all you like; you just can’t force it on others. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/396 "2011-06-02T22:52:13Z")
> [@mcfirefly](#): > > Anyway, spending more time here is a waste of time. And then you make six more posts in a row. ---
**Author:** ![mcfirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@mcfirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcfirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/397 "2011-06-02T22:55:09Z")
I won’t use Franklin Gothic Medium. I was tired…it is just that I’m not used to a choice. I guess I don’t know what the true font of wisdom is. Didn’t I say over and over that I am not a “rightie?” I hate the religious right movement; it is misrepresenting us, not you. Didn’t I say I was for a separation of church and state? I thought what I said certainly implied it, anyway. I had only a limited amount of time. Entering text on an iPod Touch is time-consuming; you have to keep backing up. I am for the separation of church and state, just not the one that says as soon as the public sidewalk in front of your house begins, your freedom to speak about your faith ends. I supported the ban on school prayer as a believing kid, and only later decided it had not had such good motives. That doesn’t mean that I support the state imposing religion. Didn’t I say that I was bent over backwards to support this thing? Didn’t I also say that I wouldn’t want to destroy the ACLU? I answered the question truthfully. I did not notice that it was a closed thread. If I “come off” as a right-winger, it is not my fault. You just can’t stand anyone messing with your preconceptions: a good straw man is easy to burn in the desert; should you be in Nevada at the right time, you can join in burning him. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/398 "2011-06-02T22:57:55Z")
> [@mcfirefly](#): > > I won’t use Franklin Gothic Medium. I was tired…it is just that I’m not used to a choice. I guess I don’t know what the true font of wisdom is. > > Didn’t I say over and over that I am not a “rightie?” I hate the religious right movement; it is misrepresenting us, not you. Didn’t I say I was for a separation of church and state? I thought what I said certainly implied it, anyway. I had only a limited amount of time. Entering text on an iPod Touch is time-consuming; you have to keep backing up. I am for the separation of church and state, just not the one that says as soon as the public sidewalk in front of your house begins, your freedom to speak about your faith ends. I supported the ban on school prayer as a believing kid, and only later decided it had not had such good motives. That doesn’t mean that I support the state imposing religion. Didn’t I say that I was bent over backwards to support this thing? Didn’t I also say that I wouldn’t want to destroy the ACLU? I answered the question truthfully. I did not notice that it was a closed thread. > > If I “come off” as a right-winger, it is not my fault. You just can’t stand anyone messing with your preconceptions: a good straw man is easy to burn in the desert; should you be in Nevada at the right time, you can join in burning him. Then I don’t get it. Could you please link to a case where you think the ACLU shouldn’t have defended someone? ---
**Author:** ![mcfirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@mcfirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcfirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/399 "2011-06-02T23:00:03Z")
You are somewhat “forced” to hear when we open our mouths at all in earshot of other human beings. The moment that we do, the average fierce man on the street rattles his sabers, telling us that we are forcing our opinions on him and it will no longer be tolerated. That’s the street, you say, not a court case. True, but your court cases have had a chilling effect on our freedom of speech, we whose speech will no longer be tolerated. You just don’t ever seem to take the loss of our freedoms seriously, which is what would be expected if the charter I read was authentic and present-day ACLUers ascribe to it. I wondered if that wasn’t why Nat Hentoff quit, but I didn’t follow up on the story. You pretend that _allowing_ our speech in schools, etc (on city \_sidewalks? in _public_?) is a violation of the establishment clause, even the speech of small children, but you allow all the other speech to shout us down in the same official (or even just public) venues, with no complaint from you. You allow clear violations of the establishment clause, such as allowing Hinduism under the name of Transcendental Meditation (a “science”) to be taught in schools (many other current programs are similar, even though that specific one was years ago–I guess) with not a peep of protest at all from you. You let Wayne Dyer preach sorcery on still somewhat publicly funded PBS, yet no protest. There are many, many examples of this dishonesty. When the pretense of equal protection under the law runs out–it is just too obvious to pretend–you switch to a kind of implied “turnabout is fair play” rationale. Supposedly, we have been the oppressors, so it is now our turn to be oppressed, and others take our place (as oppressors). That this …crap could never bring about equal protection under the law is seemingly of no concern to you; you are enjoying it too much to care. I really think you are just jerking me around; ooooo, I “come off” as a right-winger, when obviously I am not. I do hate to come off that way, but I will chalk it up to a bunch if hypocrites (if whatever motuvation.) i may post my url for further comments; other than that, I am through. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257/400 "2011-06-02T23:01:11Z")
I’ve also checked out Barbara Marx Hubbard, whom you really seem to not like, but I don’t see how that pertains to the ACLU. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-righties-have-against-the-aclu/444257.md?page=21)