Hastur, why are you angry at the skeptics that are telling you that people are trying to con you and others out of your hard-earned money, and not at the con artists themselves? Personally, I feel no need to be polite to people that lie, cheat and steal, or people that endanger the lives of others be selling them “miracle” cures that dissuade them from seeking proper medical attention.
Well, this is a fair question.
Personally, I went to Church (Congregational) till I was 14 (and also won the religious studies prize at School). By then it was clear there was no proof of the Resurrection, or of any other religion.
Doc Nickel summed up my feelings pretty well. (In particular, why **are **there so many conflicting versions of Christianity?)
I try to behave well because that makes sense in society, not because some Presence tells me to.
Now if you want to quietly celebrate some personal revelation, I’m happy for you. The difficulty is that most religious people take it further than that.
Here in the UK, we have a Lord’s Day Observance Society. They think there should be restrictions on what people can do on Sundays. They are polite and operate within the law. Nevertheless I disagree with them.
Then you can go to the unpleasant. Preachers who say you must give them money, and they will heal you. I don’t believe in these ‘powers’, and of course they’ve never satisfied any sort of testing.
Finally you come to the unacceptable. People who say their God told them to commit violence.
So, yosemitebabe, I have no problem with you quietly believing.
I know Christians (Buddhists, Muslims etc) who are admirable people.
But some religious nuts scare me, and they claim to be true believers.
David said it pretty well.
I recall from Randi’s book, he mentions Jonestown.
How belieivng in something can be very dangerous.
And what of the people who go to faith healers?
They throw away their medicine. We don’t hear later, how many of them died as a result.
one of my biggest problems is with those who prosyletize. i have had: a) tracts left on my desk and (when i was waiting tables at a restaurant) on the tables IN LIEU of a tip (i guess i just look like a godless heathen). b) i have received post cards in the mail from psychics (i do not patronize psychics in way shape or form) saying “zoot, i am so worried about you. the cards have shown me things that i think you need to be aware of. please call me at 1-900-…”. i have never given these people a penny, or even called one of their numbers as a lark. c)so many different religions pund on my door on saturday morning to ask about my soul that i now answer the door in a dirty bathrobe, wearing aluminum foil on my head, and shouting “are you on a secure frequency!!!”. its the only way i can get them to leave me alone.
i have never had a skeptic awaken me on the weekend, try to sell me his “non-magic beans” or leave me a copy of “the skeptical enquirer” instead of 15%.
perhaps the “venom” you feel you’re witnessing is in response to the people who refuse to let US believe what WE want to believe.
Because I am the starter of a couple of the recent Browne threads (or as it relates to the disaster, I brought her name up) allow me to respond.
The reason there is so much venom in recent posts about Browne and the disaster is that she is so obviously lying about “prediciting” the disaster on Tuesday. Between the 4 planes, the Pentagon, and the trade centers we are looking at a death toll of perhaps 5000 people, and yet on her website she claims she predicted the event. And not only that, alow me to quote her:
Furthermore, allow me to quote the actual prediction, which she apparently thinks cannot be found on her web site:
How anybody could lie about a prediction of an event of this magnitude is astounding to me. It is obvious to me that despite her sanctimonious and pious attitude exemplified by the Larry King show appearance is fake, as fake as her psyhchic ability.
Would I like to see psychic ability proven. Of course! What I despise is people utilizing peoples grief or tradegy to prop themselves up. Heck, I’m surprised Uri Geller hasn’t claimed yet that he swatted the 4th plane down with mind power. He’s done that type of activity before.
I will agree with you on one point:
I’m guessing we are disagreeing as to the why however. I thought LK’s fawning over Browne was pathetic. He acted as if every statement was correct, even those that could not be followed up on. (She told several people to get tests done, she could be wrong or right, it doesn’t matter, we’ll never know). He berated Randi by attempting to get him to admit there are some things that can’t be explained, etc. Randi never comes off well on television, because in my opinion the producers of the show don’t want him to. The people who are running the show generally want the psychics to look good, because that is their audience.
In case you are curious, Randi got his heart checked and it came out with flying colors. I guess his “left ventricle” is fine after all.
disclaimer - I didn’t have time to read everyone’s response - - - sorry if I repeat
Let me try to remember a few quotes
Carl Sagan…
“We live in a society that is based on science and technology and yet we have arranged it so that almost no one knows anything about science and technology. Power and ignorance are a clear prescription for disaster.”
some erudite environmentalist…
“We cannot save what we do not understand”
Ayn Rand…
“Reality exists apart from our wishes and prayers to the contrary.”
In other words, if we try to live a mystical life in a non-mystical world, humanity will hurt itself.
Consider the current, albeit extreme, case in point. What if a terrorist group, bent on some religious crusade, got hold of high-tech weapons of mass destruction?
For me, personally, it’s the satisfaction of knowing that I’ve done good, fought against superstition and ignorance, and helped people learn about the wonders of the world. That’s all I get out if it. It’s ignorant to rely on psychics and tarot readings for the same reason it’s ignorant to bleed illnesses or believe the sun revolves around the earth. In order to believe those things, you need to be ignorant of the evidence that exists. This doesn’t mean that people who believe this are stupid…usually they aren’t, or that they have bad motivations to believe it, because usually they don’t. They just either don’t have the correct evidence, or they do, and they ignore it, preferring a kind of metaphysical crutch. I hope you don’t see this as an attack, because it’s not. I know I’m not always rational about things. I’m not proud of that, but it’s true, and having occasional bouts of unreason makes me sympathetic to other people who do. However, I will keep on educating people who want to be educated. I don’t feel negative feelings at all towards them, actually.
The people I do dislike, and that I will unleash “venom and hatred” against, are those people who take advantage of the superstitious…who use their superstitions to benefit themselves or hurt other people, whether it’s Fred “G-d hates fags” Phelps, Oral “I will be struck down from heaven unless you good people send in your donations” Roberts, John “I see dead people” Edwards, or Ms. “Mon, if you pay me I will reveal the tarot for you” Cleo.
These are the people I dislike, because they take advantage of the gullible, the innocent, and the helpless, and personally, I think taking advantage of the gullible, the innocent, and the helpless is bullying, it’s wrong, and it’s not something I’ll tolerate.
I believe completely in God. However, I admit that there
is no proof of God’s existence. That is a crucial difference. IMHO that is also one of the major differences between most theists and fundies. I don’t make any claims about walking on water or healing the sick by laying on hands.
Tarot cards have been around for quite some time. In all that time, there has been no proof that they work. To some, tarot and the like are a part of their personal faith-not so different from mezzuzahs or rosary beads. But many people prey on these believers. Browne and the rest take money and claim to provide a service. There is no evidence they can do what they claim. Randi and others have produced evidence that strongly suggests (Under the scientific method, Randi has only proven that psychic powers are unnecessary to perform Geller's stunts. While Occam's razor tells us that Geller's is a con artist, there is no definite proof of that until he submits to testing) these people are knowingly and intentionally lying in order to bilk the public. Browne, Geller and the rest go on talk shows and say that their abilities are proof. Yet they refuse outside testing. If they really could do what they claimed, they should be able to devise a scientifically valid test that provides evidence.
All the subjects Randi tests agree to the terms of the test beforehand. If they think the test is flawed in some way, they and Randi make necessary changes. A woman claimed to be able to see auras. She chose audience members who, she claimed, had brigt auras that extended a foot or so from their bodies. She asked that each time the subjects were moved orange lights sweep the stage, to clean up any aura residue. This was done. She failed the test. One dowser said that the hidden water must be flowing. Randi designed a new test using a pattern of buried pipes. The subject failed. I can find no bias in his tests. Thus, I can see no reason why anyone who truly had psychic abilities would refuse testing.To me it depends on whether they are trying to make money off of it. A fake faith healer who is trying to raise money on TV really annoys me. Just as much as someone selling laundry balls, book on UFOs, or astrological charts.
I see things a bit differently.
I think that your definition falls under blind faith. Blind faith is destructive.
I think faith requires more. It does require proof, if only for the individual. In that case, one needs to be discerning and searching for truth.
That is at least my take on it.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by glee *
**
Where he is concerned, I have seen him on television doing his debunking during the 1970’s. I remember specials that he was on where he would either send out taunts to Uri Gellar(who I thought was a fake even as a child), or where he would have Uri on stage to debunk him.
His style, even as a child, struck me as being nasty. I think that were Randi really interested in debunking, he would have his language and demeanor remain as impartial as possible so he would not let himself be an open target when the psychic fails.
I think that he creates confabulation and in his television appearances, is just as hungry for publicity as his targets.
Mind you, this is my opinion, and your milage may vary.
That is because I do not believe all of them are con artists. I think some of them have an authentic gift which allows them to see a glimpse into the past, present, and future.
Selling miracle cures is different. If someone is trying to peddle laetrile, I would want them stopped. If someone tried to sell me a patent medicine that would supposedly make my multiple sclerosis go away and then said I could give up medication, I think I would whack them with my cane.
I think that suggesting a good percentage of psychics are frauds is fine. Some, in my experience, are not.
What gets to me is the venom. I think skeptics are generally educated people. Such people I think should be articulate and able to discuss the topic without immediately resorting to being hostile and hateful. While I realize all too well that it is easy to become angry and venomous, an intelligent person can fight that desire and keep an even keel.
The same reason Dr. laura or Jerry Falwell is everything people hate about “conservatives”.
The answer? To quote the Wildlife Preserve Manager from the Simpsons:
“Some people are just jerks.”
Well it can be difficult to keep calm when confronted by fraud. Particularly when the host of the TV show is not interested in science, only in speculation.
Of course Randi is interested in publicity! As previous posters have remarked, there’s plenty of unsubstantiated rubbish that gets plenty of attention. Who wants to hear the truth - that psychic powers don’t exist?
An interesting evasion of glee’s point. Regardless of whether the man is an ass or not (and I’m willing to concede that he is an abrasive jerk :)), shouldn’t he be at the very least a poor ass by this point? Neither Randi himself, nor the JREF directly involves themselves in setting the conditions for the tests for the $1,000,000 challenge. The Applicant is the one who sets the terms and conditions of the testing. Of course the condition that flummoxes most applicants is the need for describing what is both a positive and a negative result.
I don’t know if I’m a skeptic. I just don’t believe.
I’m not trying to talk people out of their beliefs, whether it’s a religion or psychics. Believe what you like.
The only thing I try to gain is to let people leave me in my non-believing and not try to push a religion in my throat.
Thank you.
Why does astrology make me upset? Because people who cannot see through the obvious nonsense of astrology can be persuaded to believe anything. The more you examine astrology the less sense it makes.
How were personality traits correlated with signs when the Babylonians didn’t have statistical methods? Why doesn’t modern astrology take precession of the equinoxes into account? HOW can the stars and planets influence human psychology? Why don’t statistical analyses of astrology show any measurable correlations?
The more you look at it, the less sense it makes. But wouldn’t you suppose that the people who believe in astrology would examine the foundations of astrology…if only to make astrology more effective? But this never happens. The only people who are interested in scientific examination of astrology are people who don’t believe in astrology. And why is that? Because any scientific examination of astrology shows that astrology is false.
But think about that. People are unwilling to ask questions about astrology. Here is a miraculous tool that can tell us about ourselves and about the future, and yet it hasn’t been changed or refined in the 3000 years since the Babylonians. People don’t want to examine astrology. And I find this willful disregard for facts and logic very frightening.
People who believe in astrology have demonstrated that either they are unable to separate truth from falsehood or that they are unwilling to do so. And I don’t think I have to reiterate the whole sad history of the 20th Century to show why this sort of thing is so dangerous. People who believe in astrology are capable of believing anything.
Lemur; So? Let them believe in anything.
As long as I don’t have to.
Hastur, by its very nature faith is blind. Can you conclusively prove to me that God exists? What, the Bible you say? Man wrote the Bible. It is therefore unreliable as a source to confirm the existence of God. Think about it.
All faith is destructive to a certain extent. It results in indoctrination instead of realization. How many of you grew up a Roman Catholic, or a Baptist, or a Muslim and never gave it a second thought? Do you sincerely believe in what you say, or is it just that it is what you were taught? Maybe both. I make no judgments about that.
But the fact that your mind was made up for you limits your thinking, whether you realize it or not.
That is why I have a problem with religion and Fundamentalists. It requires no thought, just unwavering faith that they are 100% correct and you are wrong.
You just answered your own question. Imagine, if you will, the following imaginary conversation between a skeptic and a believer:
B: Psychics and tarot card readers can see into the future or otherwise make “readings” of people and objects?
S: Really? There’s been a lot of research done on those people, you know, and none of it has resulted in any evidence that they actually possess any powers or do any better than chance.
B: Well, there may be some frauds out there, but there are a lot of authentic ones out there also.
S: Well, how can you tell who the real ones are and who the frauds are?
B: Oh, I can just tell.
S: But how can you tell? Is there some kind of test we could perform? Such a power, after all, would pose some incredible questions concerning what we know about energy, biology and physics; and would obviously be extremely beneficial for humankind.
B: Of course you can’t test it; you just have to know how to tell!
S: Can you teach others how to tell?
B: No, you can either tell or you can’t.
S: Can others develop this “gift”?
B: No, you’re born with it.
S: So if you can’t teach it to others, and you can’t develop it yourself, how can you be sure it exists, and that they aren’t just all frauds?
B: You just don’t want to believe. You’re afraid that there are things out there that science can’t explain. You’re afraid that there are powers beyond what we can see and feel.
. . . and it usually gets worse from there. Can you see how that would be frustrating? Believers in these things have the opportunity to demonstrate something truly amazing to humankind, something which would fundamentally alter our understanding of the universe, ourselves, and our evolution. But whenever they’re asked to explain them, or have them scientifically tested, or whatnot, they hedge and hem and haw and finally accuse skeptics of being venomous, close-minded cranks. I don’t know about you, but that sure pisses me off.