# What Do Sovereign Citizens Get Out of All Their Nonsense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851 "2019-05-31T21:41:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/61 "2019-06-01T23:17:45Z")
As I understand it, the “travelling/driving” distinction hinges on one edition of Black’s Law Dictionary that used the word “employ” in its definition of “driver”. I have to figure along similar lines there’s some legal style guide out there that suggests legal persons (i.e. corporations, foundations, etc.) should have their names written IN CAPITAL LETTERS to try to distinguish them from natural persons (i.e. human beings), and this is the source of all the sovcit uppercase/lowercase bullshit, in which they assume that if their names are written in capitals then _by definition_ the document cannot refer to _them_ but some fictional version of them, and let the fictional version pay the fine or the civil judgement or child support or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/62 "2019-06-01T23:44:43Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You are not understanding why the sovcits do what they do. They mostly believe they are engaging in civil disobedience. I absolutely do understand why most of them do what they do, and it has nothing to do with civil disobedience. Most SovCits are deadbeats and low level lawbreakers who are grasping onto the sovereign citizen straw as a way of trying to avoid their petty troubles. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/63 "2019-06-02T00:17:34Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I saw [this one](https://youtu.be/S8y7nGdxmWw) recently, who has an incredibly patient boyfriend, but I wonder if she does for long. That was really painful to watch. I feel sorry for all involved. Even the girl. She obviously was terrified out of her mind that the police were going to carry her off to some black site never to be heard from again. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/64 "2019-06-02T00:28:43Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You are not understanding why the sovcits do what they do. They mostly believe they are engaging in civil disobedience. Some may believe they have uncovered something magical, but I’m sure that is the minority. They get a rush from bucking the system. Intelligence is neither here nor there. I’m sure sovereign citizens believe they’re bucking the system. But they’re not. The “successful” ones are the ones who manage to avoid the system. In any encounter with the system, sovereign citizens lose and the system wins. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/65 "2019-06-02T01:49:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I absolutely do understand why most of them do what they do, and it has nothing to do with civil disobedience. Most SovCits are deadbeats and low level lawbreakers who are grasping onto the sovereign citizen straw as a way of trying to avoid their petty troubles. In fact, it is the exact definitional opposite of civil disobedience. People engaging in civil disobedience know they are breaking what they consider to be an unjust law and are willing to accept the consequences of their actions. Sovereign citizens don’t believe in laws or the legitimacy of governments and believe their magic sayings will protect them from any consequences. There may not be two more dissimilar systems of thought in the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/66 "2019-06-02T05:13:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The problem is that they do not believe the constitution is valid. That at the time of the civil war the Constitution of “These United States” was replaced with a forgery for “The United States”. Expanding on this– Possibly the most bizarre part of the whole bizarre thing is that many of them treat the Uniform Commercial Code as if **it** were the Constitution. Example: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPRno-ld8k8) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/67 "2019-06-02T05:43:42Z")
Look, they’re dumb. Like really really dumb. The 16% of the population with IQs between 55 and 85 dumb. They have a fundamentally distorted and stupid-fied idea of how the Government and the world work that is based in part on how movies portray the world with secret societies and government agencies and fringe conspiracy theories. They also don’t fundamentally grasp The Law and/or how Language works, because they have this teaching that if you say the right magic words, the right phrase, notice the same semi-common courtroom features, write the correct public notices, then you magically don’t have to do anything that court or the police tell you to do. You’re Sovereign over yourself, a free person. What do they get? In on “the secret”. Power over their lives when they otherwise felt completely powerless due to the government conspiracies they believe. They get to be **The Special People The Government Can’t Touch**. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/68 "2019-06-02T06:10:32Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Look, they’re dumb. Like really really dumb. The 16% of the population with IQs between 55 and 85 dumb. I wish anti-vaxxers, creationist, moon hoaxers, birthers, and sovereign citizens were stupid but I don’t believe that’s the case. It takes a certain amount of intelligence to construct that fundamentally distorted idea of how the world works. I honestly don’t believe a stupid person could come up with the [Redemption Movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redemption_movement), come up with reasons why the 14th Amendment isn’t valid, the idea of fictitious persons versus sovereign persons, file false liens, or commit insurance fraud to the tune of millions of dollars. They might be delusional but they’re not stupid. They’d be a lot easier to deal with if they were dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/69 "2019-06-02T06:39:12Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I wish anti-vaxxers, creationist, moon hoaxers, birthers, and sovereign citizens were stupid but I don’t believe that’s the case. It takes a certain amount of intelligence to construct that fundamentally distorted idea of how the world works. I honestly don’t believe a stupid person could come up with the [Redemption Movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redemption_movement), come up with reasons why the 14th Amendment isn’t valid, the idea of fictitious persons versus sovereign persons, file false liens, or commit insurance fraud to the tune of millions of dollars. They might be delusional but they’re not stupid. They’d be a lot easier to deal with if they were dumb. Most of these people don’t come up with their own ideas. They just adopt crazy ideas that other people came up with. And when you consider some of these people are willing to pay for crazy ideas, you have to suspect that many of the people who came up with them don’t believe the ideas they’re selling. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/70 "2019-06-02T08:29:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > As I understand it, the “travelling/driving” distinction hinges on one edition of Black’s Law Dictionary that used the word “employ” in its definition of “driver”. Black’s, yes, but the FOTL/SovCit distinction is between the 2nd and 6th editions. Note that there really is no distinction, but even among FOTLs/SovCits, I’ve noticed dissent as to which edition is legally correct. Surprise, FOTL/SovCits! Any edition of Black’s is not legally-correct in the sense that it is accepted as good law anywhere in the common law world. It is only a dictionary, and no more useful in the courtroom than Merriam-Webster or the Oxford English Dictionary would be. What do FOTLs/SovCits get out of all their nonsense? The opportunity to pay hundreds, or maybe thousands, to an OPCA guru, who gladly pockets their money; while they ineffectually cite Magna Carta to a cop at a traffic stop. _Et cetera_. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/71 "2019-06-02T09:42:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Most of these people don’t come up with their own ideas. They just adopt crazy ideas that other people came up with. And when you consider some of these people are willing to pay for crazy ideas, you have to suspect that many of the people who came up with them don’t believe the ideas they’re selling. Most of them have room-temperature IQs, but the gurus are the ones selling the stuff, not the ones buying it, and the gurus are the only ones who have to make stuff up. Now, for the kicker: [At least some gurus get high on their own supply!](https://www.adl.org/blog/winston-shrout-the-rise-and-fall-of-a-sovereign-citizen-guru) Look at Winston Shrout, for example: > [@](#): > > Federal prosecutors in Portland, Oregon, obtained a 19-count grand jury indictment in mid-March against Winston Shrout, a Hillsboro, Oregon, resident and one of the most prominent sovereign citizen gurus in the United States, a man whose videos and seminars have attracted thousands of people to the anti-government extremist movement. > > Shrout was charged with 13 counts of using fictitious financial instruments in connection with an alleged debt elimination scheme. Fictitious financial instruments are bogus checks, money orders, or similar documents that purport to be payments of money but are not in fact genuine. Since the early 1980s, sovereign citizens have been fascinated with fictitious financial instruments, using them for everything from escaping their own debts to perpetrating major frauds and scams, especially against indebted property owners. Passing them became a federal crime thanks to a law passed after the 1996 Montana Freemen standoff; the Freemen having been energetic promoters of such bogus instruments. > > [snip] > > The federal indictment accuses Shrout of creating and spreading more than 300 bogus “International Bills of Exchange” and “Non-Negotiable Bills of Exchange,” instruments with a combined face value of over $100 trillion (but worthless in fact). The indictment claims that Shrout used such instruments himself and also marketed them as a way for others to pay off their debts. Shrout is also charged with 6 counts of willful failure to file income tax returns. Shrout sold the ideology and practiced it. I don’t know if he came up with anything original, but some of the scammers are just as dumb as their marks, at least when it comes to dealing with the government. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/72 "2019-06-02T10:47:31Z")
Meanwhile, [a bit of courtroom entertainment on this side of the water](https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/judge-told-doesnt-jurisdiction-over-2931764) ---
**Author:** ![UnwittingAmericans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d9b06d/32.png) [@UnwittingAmericans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwittingAmericans)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/73 "2019-06-02T12:29:09Z")
They don’t get shit out of it except some more usernames and passwords. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/74 "2019-06-02T14:16:22Z")
They get no respect from the world, but as a sovcit they (imagine) they are garnering the respect of their fellow disaffected, fringe dwellers. ---
**Author:** ![txjim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@txjim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txjim)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/75 "2019-06-02T14:16:38Z")
I’ll add [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRySQ8rSs9E) from Broward County, FL. By the way, there are several videos of Judge Hurley’s courtroom on Youtube, all worth a look! Edit: Fun starts at 2:20 ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/76 "2019-06-02T14:56:49Z")
We have a lot of these nutballs in my area. Of course, this region seems to draw all sorts of semi-related nutballs. We have the moronic Redoubt movement folks. We have a resurgence of white supremecy (this is the heart of what was Aryan Nations). We have folks that defend the moronic Bundy escapades. Hell, in Spokane Valley they even have a state elected Rep that supports pretty much all of this (he went to Malheur) and is leading the charge to form a new state named Liberty, which will become a white utopia (look up Matt Shea if you want to learn more). Lifted pickup trucks with huge Gadsden, rebel and US flags flying from the bed are common. I don’t know what they get out of it. I think they all live in this odd fantasy world where stockpiling 50K 223 rounds wins you an entry into white heaven. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/77 "2019-06-02T15:19:26Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Look, they’re dumb. Like really really dumb. The 16% of the population with IQs between 55 and 85 dumb. No, you are wrong. There is no evidence what you are saying is true. The capacity of people, even very intelligent people, to believe in nonsense and lunacy is truly limitless. You can take any stupidity and you will find that people with perfectly normal, even above average IQs are taken in by it. Pyramid schemes? Anti-vaxx nonsense? Nigerian email scams? People with graduate degrees fall for all that shit. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/78 "2019-06-02T20:55:29Z")
they also claim something about a US flag with the gold fringe on it . Either the fringe means it’s not a legit flag or it is legit , cannot recall which one. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/79 "2019-06-02T21:59:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > No, you are wrong. There is no evidence what you are saying is true. > > The capacity of people, even very intelligent people, to believe in nonsense and lunacy is truly limitless. You can take any stupidity and you will find that people with perfectly normal, even above average IQs are taken in by it. Pyramid schemes? Anti-vaxx nonsense? Nigerian email scams? People with graduate degrees fall for all that shit. Smart people buy lottery tickets too. But they aren’t at the level of idiocy that sovcits are. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/80 "2019-06-02T22:55:12Z")
I mentioned this thread and was informed there are German sort-of SCs who believe the Weimar Republic never actually ended or something: [Reichsbürger movement - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsb%C3%BCrgerbewegung) That article is :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851.md?page=5)