# What Do Sovereign Citizens Get Out of All Their Nonsense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851 "2019-05-31T21:41:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/101 "2019-06-04T18:28:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Moorish Americans Moopish Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/102 "2019-06-04T23:12:32Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > . . . And a case that may be of interest: [https://caselaw.findlaw.com/oh-municipal-court/1139588.html](https://caselaw.findlaw.com/oh-municipal-court/1139588.html) Nice. That one’s going to get referenced. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/103 "2019-06-05T09:16:41Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Nice. That one’s going to get referenced. Indeed. Thanks, **Elendil’s Hei** r, for posting that. It was most entertaining. “I’m going to treat all this as a motion to dismiss,” after the litigant filed hundreds of pages of multiple documents. For those not in the know, a “motion to dismiss” is one document that takes up one or two pages, max. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/104 "2019-06-05T09:54:28Z")
I’m sure that what feeds the SC movement is when their system “works.” For example, I know a police officer around here who pulled over a driver (oops, traveller) for going 82 in a 70. He is generally a pretty nice guy and the driver had a wife and a small child in the back. The driver refused to produce a license, saying he was travelling, and said that he was John of the family of Smith. After a long attempt at getting his date of birth, the officer ran the guy’s name, got a picture of his still valid DL (about a month away from expiring) and wrote him a warning ticket for speeding. I told the officer that, IMHO, that was probably the worst thing he could have done. I would guess that the driver (err traveller) probably drove away telling his wife that the reason he only got a worthless warning ticket was because of his legal brilliance which forced the officer to write the warning. But the officer said that he wanted to be fair, that he was going to write a warning anyways, the guy had no warrants and he had his wife and kid with him. That seems fair enough, but it helps feed the insanity. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/105 "2019-06-05T13:21:44Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But the officer said that he wanted to be fair, that he was going to write a warning anyways, the guy had no warrants and he had his wife and kid with him. That seems fair enough, but it helps feed the insanity. This is exactly right. The Sov Cit arguments only ever “work” because, rhetoric about “fascists” aside, most of our police and courts really _do_ want to serve and protect. They’ll go out of their way to be fair to a litigant, because even stupid and/or crazy people have rights, and can be wronged by others. There have been many cases in which the courts and the police have gone out of their way to figure out that the Sov Cits have a legitimate complaint buried in their mass of irrelevant nonsense, and ruled on that small part of the complaint. The Sov Cits then trumpet this as a win for their nonsense, when in fact, they won in spite of their nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/106 "2019-06-05T13:41:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I think the idea is is that “we” never had a choice, we never agreed to the social contract fully informed and without coercion. My brother who’d probably be living in some hole under Montana if he were American seems to think that if he doesn’t know where to find some information, then the information is being “hidden from us”. At least in his case he’s eventually realized that if he talks to certain people in his life (such as either one of his siblings) and claims that this or that is “hidden from us”, we do reply calmly and point him to the information in a very neutral source, but for some reason he never asks directly: he’ll say something like “nobody knows what a ‘_calabacitas de colores_’+ contract is”, then we’ll find for him - a document from the Spanish Bar Association explaining the concept in small words; - the current text of the law regarding such contracts (plain, with commentary in small words and with commentary in big words and a bunch of Latin); - and multiple samples of such contracts, some of them with commentary. - not an actual type of contract. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/107 "2019-06-06T17:20:42Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I still maintain the Confederacy was an 1860-version of this movement. I mean… no. Not even close. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/108 "2019-06-07T01:38:51Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I saw [this one](https://youtu.be/S8y7nGdxmWw) recently, who has an incredibly patient boyfriend, but I wonder if she does for long. At one point, she yells at Randy that he is the one who has been encouraging her to stand up for this. So Randy talks the talk but can’t walk the walk. She’s dived into the deep end. She’ll dump him and take up with some \*real \*sovcit that her friend on the phone knows. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/109 "2019-06-07T01:51:48Z")
[Anyone linked to this yet?](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/110 "2019-06-07T02:00:25Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > [Anyone linked to this yet?](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land) [Freeman successes.](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#Freeman_successes) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/111 "2019-06-07T02:56:01Z")
[This](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xgQNp6oIKNo) video of a Moop just came up in my Youtube suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/112 "2019-06-07T03:28:50Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I mean… no. Not even close. I am hip-deep into Davis’ _Short History of the Confederate States of America._ I have to take in little bits as it is very upsetting. I see a lot of this SC stuff in Davis. He argues that since he has fancy words and legal theories he actually won the war, or something. He ignores reality and lives in a cloud coo-coo land of nonsense and mumbo-jumbo. Frankly I wonder is he was quite sane. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/113 "2019-06-08T21:05:02Z")
Very interesting thread. Since I’ve been encountering SovCits now in my practice for over 20 years, thought I’d pipe in. 1. **RickJay** got it right in post # 9. In my experience, SovCits are having legal troubles in their life. Divorce, bankruptcy, lost their job - life’s not going well. 2. They see their problems as stemming from the law. They can’t accept that the law means that they lost their business, their wife gets half their joint assets, etc. So the law must be wrong. And that sets them off in their quest through Black Law Dictionary, the Statute of Westminster 1931, and the UCC. In some cases their legal researches are aided by fellow-travellers and gurus, but in other case it’s all their own work and legal “research”. 3. I disagree with **Will Farnaby** ’s two points. First, the ones I have encountered don’t take the positions that the laws don’t exist and that government has no power. Rather, they believe that there are secret laws that bind government, and once they start using those laws, governments will back off. That’s not libertarianism, but rather crypto-constitutionalism. 4. Second, I’ve not met one who use SovCit ideology as a form of civil disobedience. As far as I can tell from my dealings with them, they truly believe the legal gibberish they’re spouting, and that it will keep them from having their asses tossed in jail. That’s the exact opposite of civil disobedience. They tend to outraged when, in fact, their asses do get tossed in jail. That wasn’t supposed to happen and is just further proof of the conspiracy. (One court official told me that she once had to explain to a SovCit that the Uniform Commercial Code had no application in Canada. She said he was outraged at her apparent ignorance of basic legal principles, and that her denials helped show that he was actually on the right track. She didn’t get any impression that he was in any way faking his comments and his outrage.) 5. It can’t be dismissed as low IQ or mental disorder. When this stuff first started popping up here, some judges actually did send a few of the SovCits off for mental health evaluations. And the report kept coming back that there was no sign of mental disorder. The individuals had strongly held, bizarre beliefs about the legal system and government, but did not show signs of mental disorder. Odd beliefs, in and of themselves, are not a symptom of mental disorder. 6. While some of the “gurus” are in it for the money, others are true believers who have faced the inside of jail cells for their beliefs and yet come out, poorer in material wealth yet convinced of the rightness of their legal views and determined to keep “helping” people in trouble with the law by coaching them on the true, hidden law. 7. They cannot be dismissed as harmless nut-jobs. Some of them only cause trouble for themselves, but others are fraudsters and paper terrorists, using tactics such as liens and caveats to cause financial harm to others. And, fortunately rarely, some can be violent. There was a father-son pair a few years ago who shot dead two police officers who pulled them over for a traffic violation. There was a guy who shot dead two bailiffs who came to his property over a dispute over a widening of a road allowance. And as near as anyone can tell, they thought the law was on their side to gun down uniformed officers. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/114 "2019-06-08T21:51:03Z")
Thanks for the lengthy post Norther Piper, but nothing there says that they are either morons or crooks. Usually both. > [@item #5](#): > > 1. It can’t be dismissed as low IQ or mental disorder. When this stuff first started popping up here, some judges actually did send a few of the SovCits off for mental health evaluations. And the report kept coming back that there was no sign of mental disorder. The individuals had strongly held, bizarre beliefs about the legal system and government, but did not show signs of mental disorder. Odd beliefs, in and of themselves, are not a symptom of mental disorder. I guess being a simpleton is not a metal disorder as such. But people that will not take responsibility for their actions is. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/115 "2019-06-09T21:41:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Sovereign citizens are odd creatures, Moorish-Americans a bit more so since they also work race into the mix. Don’t mention them in the same sentence. Moorish folks on the whole are sane, upright citizens, an extreme contrast to the SC crazies. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/116 "2019-06-09T22:42:01Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Don’t mention them in the same sentence. Moorish folks on the whole are sane, upright citizens, an extreme contrast to the SC crazies. Not actual Moors, these ‘Moors’ are a subset of ‘Sovereign Citizens’. [https://www.google.com/search?q=Moorish-Americans](https://www.google.com/search?q=Moorish-Americans) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/117 "2019-06-10T05:06:42Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > These SovCits don’t stop to think > > 1. Does this apply in states that never signed the Articles of Confederation? All thirteen states signed the Articles of Confederation. > [@BigT](#): > > It it were only keyboard commandos, it wouldn’t be so widespread. No, people exploit this stuff for profit, writing books where they claim it’s worked for them. If I were to buy into such nonsense, I guarantee you I would not be paying for those books with “government” money; I’d use one of those alternative instruments the books suggest. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > As a cadet at West Point he was court martialed for being “drunk on spirits.” He got out of the charges by saying he had been drinking beer. What a clever lad. I’ve seen military cases dismissed that should not have been; they should’ve been continued with a corrected charge sheet. The majority of those cases were for “damage to government property” when a soldier got himself a sunburn or other injury. The best one, though, centered on an improperly complete DA Form 31 (Request and Authority for Leave). The soldier was gone for a year and two weeks. Of course he did not get paid for the whole year, but he did not get punished either. My guess is that the command did not really want to deal with him any longer than necessary so letting him off got him gone sooner. So, how did he get away with a year-long leave? Simple, friends, simple. He accidentally wrote the wrong year in the return date and the chain of command signed off on that. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > My brother went SovCit over ten years ago, and this describes him perfectly. :eek::eek::eek: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I have found most of them to be mean-spirited shitheads looking for a way to cheat the system, and most of them are stupid enough to believe anybody that tells them what they want to hear. Yep. SovCit/FOTL/etc. bs is yet another flavor of CT nonsense. And CTers are mean-spirited shitheads who only care about how wonderful, smart, and damned clever they appear to be. And they’re egotists, obviously, which is why, as you say, they believe what other CTers tell them: it’s what they want to hear and, “By God, there’s someone out there saying it, dammit, I hear them, so it must be true, damn, I’m clever!” > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > In fact, it is the exact definitional opposite of civil disobedience. > > People engaging in civil disobedience know they are breaking what they consider to be an unjust law and are willing to accept the consequences of their actions. > > Sovereign citizens don’t believe in laws or the legitimacy of governments and believe their magic sayings will protect them from any consequences. > > There may not be two more dissimilar systems of thought in the universe. Yep. Not only are those engaged in civil disobedience willing to accept the consequences of breaking the unjust law, they usually couch their disobedience on other aspects, legitimate aspects, of the legal system. They are not touting the constitution as illegitimate nor that they are some fictional identity. They are calling on their society to honor its ideals and, get this, basic laws to right a wrong. > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > they also claim something about a US flag with the gold fringe on it . Either the fringe means it’s not a legit flag or it is legit , cannot recall which one. They claim that [a flag with fringes on it is an “admiralty flag” and therefore a court displaying such flag is an admiralty court with no jurisdiction over them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_court#Admiralty_Courts_in_the_United_States). > [@BrianDime](#): > > I worked with a guy, maybe 20 years ago now, that was one of these. He didn’t pay taxes. On his paperwork in HR he claimed a TON of dependents or something similar, so they withheld very little from his pay. Then, at the end of the year (watch this kids! you won’t be disappointed!) he would file a 1040 that was blank except for his signature at the bottom. His thinking (and I’m SURE he didn’t come up with this on his own) was that you 1) Have to file a tax form, and 2) can’t lie on the tax form, so he had found the “One secret loophole the IRS doesn’t want you to know about”. He should have filed an ID10T, instead. That reminds me of the F14 pilot joke: Question: What’s the biggest problem with the Tomcat? Answer: The R10 switch. > [@digs](#): > > Or the cops just want to see their ID, warn them about their tail light, and get back to busting meth labs in Rural-Ass Ammurica. > > I cannot believe how patient some of these police are. I often wonder if they get “Dealing With Sovereigns/Elderly/Mentally Ill” training. > ETA: Hey, Cop Shops, handy hint: Do NOT hire me. I’d spend exactly thirty seconds with these people. “Okay, you have the count of ten to get in the back of the cruiser, or I’ll tase you and drag your twitching body in there myself. And by the way, I LOVE tasing people like you…” I do believe LEO not only conducts training in various police departments around the world, but also there are seminars to discuss these particular loons. > [@Nava](#): > > ‘_calabacitas de colores_’+ contract & > [@](#): > > - not an actual type of contract. Drat! ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/118 "2019-06-10T05:23:09Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > All thirteen states signed the Articles of Confederation. What about the other 37? > [@Monty](#): > > They claim that [a flag with fringes on it is an “admiralty flag” and therefore a court displaying such flag is an admiralty court with no jurisdiction over them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_court#Admiralty_Courts_in_the_United_States). And their logic is the classic fallacy [Affirming the Consequent](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/14/Affirming-the-Consequent) An Admiralty Court must have a flag with gold fringe This flag had gold fringe Therefore this is an Admiralty Court. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/119 "2019-06-10T07:21:40Z")
I think anyone who believes in an impossibly complicated conspiracy theory is some ways down the road to mental illness. They lack judgment and insight necessary to test the reality of their beliefs. Sounds symptomatic to me. People who have those issues plus additional issues, or have it to a great enough extent that it interferes with their functioning in significant ways, it seems to me have some sort of at least low level disorder. I don’t think it is stupidity. (For some, I’m sure it plays a part, though.) I think it is primarily motivated reasoning. They hear about this “movement” or theory, and something (or many things) about it are deeply emotionally satisfying. Because of that, they essentially want to believe, and will seek reasons supporting it, and reject information questioning it or undermining it. They also won’t have much trouble with having to shift reasons. Also, I used to have to deal with them more around a decade ago than I do now. The ones I dealt with were all white people, all invoking the racist underpinnings of their legal word salad theories, and all had legal troubles in which they felt wronged. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/120 "2019-06-10T13:57:28Z")
To be fair, I’ve found that some of THE smartest people are also the wackiest. Their intelligence and success in one area has gone to their heads to the point that they think they’ve hacked ALL the rules that the rest of world lives by. I haven’t seen this in person with the Sovereign thing, but on stuff like medicine, religion, etc - oh boy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851.md?page=7)