# What Do Sovereign Citizens Get Out of All Their Nonsense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851 "2019-05-31T21:41:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/121 "2019-06-10T16:07:55Z")
Ben Carson is literally a brain surgeon, and he believes some seriously crazy stuff. Here is an explanation of his crazy ideas about the pyramids, including rejecting actual science and expert opinions, and apparently also believing that some actual scientists think aliens built the pyramids (that’s not Carson’s theory). > **[Ben Carson's bizarre theory about the pyramids, explained](https://www.vox.com/explainers/2015/11/5/9677942/ben-carson-pyramids-grain)** > > The theory demonstrates Carson's deeply religious beliefs — and the Republican Party's conflict with science. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/122 "2019-06-10T20:41:04Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Ben Carson is literally a brain surgeon, and he believes some seriously crazy stuff. Here is an explanation of his crazy ideas about the pyramids, including rejecting actual science and expert opinions, and apparently also believing that some actual scientists think aliens built the pyramids (that’s not Carson’s theory). > > [Ben Carson's bizarre theory about the pyramids, explained - Vox](https://www.vox.com/explainers/2015/11/5/9677942/ben-carson-pyramids-grain) I keep thinking that he must gotten that from playing too much Civ 3. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/123 "2019-06-11T02:45:53Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > What about the other 37? That’s hilarious! Hey, I wonder if any of those loons have come up with the “theory” that only the original 13 states were “in perpetual union” and thus the others can secede at will. > [@](#): > > And their logic is the classic fallacy [Affirming the Consequent](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/14/Affirming-the-Consequent) > An Admiralty Court must have a flag with gold fringe > This flag had gold fringe > Therefore this is an Admiralty Court. That’s some serious non-thinking from the loons, isn’t it? Oh, and that site’s explanation is a bit disgusting. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/124 "2019-06-11T11:11:36Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Not actual Moors, these ‘Moors’ are a subset of ‘Sovereign Citizens’. > [Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?q=Moorish-Americans) > > CMC fnord! I hadn’t known about that development. Their movement had been old and quiescent. I wasn’t expecting anything new out of them. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/125 "2019-06-11T11:21:58Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > I keep thinking that he must gotten that from playing too much Civ 3. LOL! That was great! In Civilization 3, if you build the Great Pyramid wonder it puts a granary in your every city. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/126 "2019-06-12T00:16:32Z")
Re SovCits Being ‘Crazy’ Some types of craziness are defined by the culture one lives in. As a ‘mental health consumer’ I’ve seen plenty of forms that say ‘do you have beliefs not supported by your culture?’ Re SovCits Being Consciencious Objectors I don’t buy it for a second. CO’s organize to change the law. SovCits just don’t want to personally deal with the consequences of the law. > [@Monty](#): > > Yep. SovCit/FOTL/etc. bs is yet another flavor of CT nonsense. And CTers are mean-spirited shitheads who only care about how wonderful, smart, and damned clever they appear to be. And they’re egotists, obviously, which is why, as you say, they believe what other CTers tell them: it’s what they want to hear and, “By God, there’s someone out there saying it, dammit, I hear them, so it must be true, damn, I’m clever!” I strongly disagree that all conspiracy theorists are “mean-spirited shitheads” who care only about themselves. In my experience, many conspiracy theorists are noble, selfless folks who risk punishment and even death at the hands of THEM in order to boldly bring the truth to the world. It’s a lot like Don Quixote. Sure, he’s a nut charging at a windmill. But he genuinely believes he is going into battle against a giant for the cause of good. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2019, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/127 "2019-06-14T06:48:48Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > This is exactly right. The Sov Cit arguments only ever “work” because, rhetoric about “fascists” aside, most of our police and courts really _do_ want to serve and protect. They’ll go out of their way to be fair to a litigant, because even stupid and/or crazy people have rights, and can be wronged by others. > > There have been many cases in which the courts and the police have gone out of their way to figure out that the Sov Cits have a legitimate complaint buried in their mass of irrelevant nonsense, and ruled on that small part of the complaint. The Sov Cits then trumpet this as a win for their nonsense, when in fact, they won in spite of their nonsense. You have a point. Most of what you all are calling “Sovereign Citizen” arguments boil down to the idea that the utter plethora of seemingly labyrinthine texts that have some force of law can be arranged in some novel way to produce a result contrary to what law enforcement and the established judiciary might expect. Occasionally, this does happen: [ul] [li]In 2008, Nebraska became the last state in the US to pass a “safe haven” law allowing parents to surrender their infants without fear of legal repercussions. Though this was intended to prevent people from dropping their babies in dumpsters the statute did not specify a maximum age. For much of the next year, parents from all over the country would drive kids as old as 17 to Nebraska and drop them off at the first hospital inside the state line. This was remedied in a special session a few months later.[/li] [li]In 1980, Rhode Island passed a law adjusting the penalties for sex work. However, the resulting statute inadvertently removed the operational language criminalizing sex for hire per se. As such, sex work itself was technically legal in Rhode Island until another law was passed in 2009. (Many associated activities, such as streetwalking, pandering, and brothel keeping, were explicitly illegal during the period, but the act itself was not.)[/li][/ul] Many of the folks we see in courtrooms today making convoluted arguments invoking irrelevant law are hoping they’ll hit on a similar circumstance. Almost always, though, their reach exceeds their grasp. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/128 "2019-06-23T21:41:06Z")
[ul] [/ul] > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I see a lot of this SC stuff in Davis. He argues that since he has fancy words and legal theories he actually won the war, or something. He ignores reality and lives in a cloud coo-coo land of nonsense and mumbo-jumbo. > > Frankly I wonder is he was quite sane. HEY! I take that personably. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2019, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/130 "2019-06-23T22:00:24Z")
Reported for spam ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/131 "2019-07-21T00:59:36Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > …the ones I have encountered don’t take the positions that the laws don’t exist and that government has no power. Rather, they believe that there are secret laws that bind government, and once they start using those laws, governments will back off. That’s not libertarianism, but rather crypto-constitutionalism… Love that last phrase! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/132 "2019-07-21T03:18:12Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Re SovCits Being Consciencious Objectors > > I don’t buy it for a second. CO’s organize to change the law. SovCits just don’t want to personally deal with the consequences of the law. Or conscientious objectors work within the law as, get this, conscientious objectors. > [@](#): > > I strongly disagree that all conspiracy theorists are “mean-spirited shitheads” who care only about themselves. In my experience, many conspiracy theorists are noble, selfless folks who risk punishment and even death at the hands of THEM in order to boldly bring the truth to the world. It’s a lot like Don Quixote. Sure, he’s a nut charging at a windmill. But he genuinely believes he is going into battle against a giant for the cause of good. Nah, I don’t buy that they’re selfless, etc. They’re buying into a magical belief to make themselves feel better and oh-so-_special_. Then they’re laughing at the rest of us. That is, they’re laughing until they get tazed. If they were really all that selfless, they’d be telling us all 24x7 about their [del]gonstic[/del] _special_ truth. So, yep, they’re mean-sprited shitheads. Now, if you’re whooshing me, well, I got whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/133 "2019-07-28T17:46:15Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Nice. That one’s going to get referenced. > [@](#): > > He is a citizen of the United States unless and until he undertakes those steps provided under federal law for revocation of citizenship, and, incidentally, s_ubjects himself to deportation_. Emphasis added That the solution to sovereign citizenship. Argue that they have voluntarily renounced their citizenship and ship them off to some 6th-world country ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/134 "2019-07-28T18:12:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Emphasis added > > That the solution to sovereign citizenship. Argue that they have voluntarily renounced their citizenship and ship them off to some 6th-world country Interesting calling for the forceful expulsion of dissidents here. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/135 "2019-07-28T18:27:06Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Interesting calling for the forceful expulsion of dissidents here. They’re not dissidents, they’re wanna-be freeloaders. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/136 "2019-07-28T18:46:25Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Emphasis added > > That the solution to sovereign citizenship. Argue that they have voluntarily renounced their citizenship and ship them off to some 6th-world country What did that 6th world country ever do to you? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/137 "2019-07-28T19:56:27Z")
It amazes me that they read this: > [@](#): > > [Congress shall have the power] To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings And they interpret that to mean that Congress only has any power at all over those areas and none anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/138 "2019-07-29T18:38:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Nah, I don’t buy that they’re selfless, etc. They’re buying into a magical belief to make themselves feel better and oh-so-_special_. Then they’re laughing at the rest of us. That is, they’re laughing until they get tazed. If they were really all that selfless, they’d be telling us all 24x7 about their [del]gonstic[/del] _special_ truth. So, yep, they’re mean-sprited shitheads. > > Now, if you’re whooshing me, well, I got whooshed. In my experience, conspiracy theorists DO tell us all 24x7 about their special truth. Indeed, the hard thing is getting them to shut up. OTTOMH, isotope money man (I can’t remember his name) SeeThruArt, etc. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/139 "2019-07-29T22:45:53Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > They’re not dissidents, they’re wanna-be freeloaders. Do you think the jackboots are going to be more successful with their “Expel the dissidents” campaign or their “Expel the wanna-be freeloaders” campaign? Perhaps they should focus-group that. Also I am amused by the hatred of wannabe freeloaders when successful freeloaders are much more common and less grateful. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/140 "2019-07-30T00:02:10Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Do you think the jackboots are going to be more successful with their “Expel the dissidents” campaign or their “Expel the wanna-be freeloaders” campaign? Perhaps they should focus-group that. > > Also I am amused by the hatred of wannabe freeloaders when successful freeloaders are much more common and less grateful. Hatred? I’m seeing a mix of faintly amused mockery and calm questioning of their mental states. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/141 "2019-07-30T01:34:14Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Hatred? I’m seeing a mix of faintly amused mockery and calm questioning of their mental states. Which is why they want them forcibly removed from the country. Thanks for the analysis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851.md?page=8)