# What Do Sovereign Citizens Get Out of All Their Nonsense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851 "2019-05-31T21:41:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/142 "2019-07-30T14:13:37Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Do you think the jackboots are going to be more successful with their “Expel the dissidents” campaign or their “Expel the wanna-be freeloaders” campaign? Perhaps they should focus-group that. > > Also I am amused by the hatred of wannabe freeloaders when successful freeloaders are much more common and less grateful. There is a difference between being stripped of your rights, and willfully renouncing your citizenship. If someone renounces their citizenship, then what do the rest of us owe them? They are far more deserving of a place in an ICE detention center than someone who actually wants to be here. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/143 "2019-07-30T16:29:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There is a difference between being stripped of your rights, and willfully renouncing your citizenship. > > If someone renounces their citizenship, then what do the rest of us owe them? They are far more deserving of a place in an ICE detention center than someone who actually wants to be here. Sovereign citizens don’t want to be here? It’s pretty easy to leave, why don’t they? Of course they want to be here, as demonstrated by their actions. They don’t want to participate in nonvoluntary associations. You would have them removed or gulaged by force of government. Yes this puts you in rather nefarious company. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/144 "2019-07-30T18:09:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Sovereign citizens don’t want to be here? It’s pretty easy to leave, why don’t they? Of course they want to be here, as demonstrated by their actions. When their actions consist of renouncing their citizenship, then their actions demonstrate that they don’t want to be here. It’s not that easy to leave, in order to leave, you have to have a place that will let you come, and nobody wants them. > [@](#): > > They don’t want to participate in nonvoluntary associations. Right, they don’t want to be here. > [@](#): > > You would have them removed or gulaged by force of government. Yes this puts you in rather nefarious company. Not at all. I would give them what they want, the ability to leave, but since those you are supporting have already built gulags to hold those you don’t like, I am just pointing out that they deserve to be there more than those that you put in there by force of govt. You can save your hysterics for actual people who are actually being persecuted by the govt that you actually support. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/145 "2019-07-30T18:28:36Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Sovereign citizens don’t want to be here? It’s pretty easy to leave, why don’t they? Of course they want to be here, as demonstrated by their actions. They don’t want to participate in nonvoluntary associations. In all seriousness, it’s pretty obvious that they want to be here; they just don’t want to have to obey the law. It’s kind of an interesting (and demented) little space they’ve carved out for themselves - they think they should be able to commit crimes, but they don’t picture themselves as criminals - they think they can bend the law to their will. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You would have them removed or gulaged by force of government. Yes this puts you in rather nefarious company. I think that criminals should be dealt with like criminals, and that people who renounce their citizenship should be dealt with like people who aren’t citizens. A sovereign citizen who actually acts on the sovereignty that no sensible person agrees that they have would be in the “criminal” category, which would make them subject to prison - “gulags”, if you hyperbolically prefer. If they chose to renounce their citizenship, then they should instead be deported, but of course they won’t do that - they don’t want to be noncitizens, they want to be \*super-\*citizens, above the law because they make their own. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/146 "2019-07-30T18:29:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > When their actions consist of renouncing their citizenship, then their actions demonstrate that they don’t want to be here. It’s not that easy to leave, in order to leave, you have to have a place that will let you come, and nobody wants them. > > **Right, they don’t want to be here.** > Not at all. I would give them what they want, the ability to leave, but since those you are supporting have already built gulags to hold those you don’t like, I am just pointing out that they deserve to be there more than those that you put in there by force of govt. > > You can save your hysterics for actual people who are actually being persecuted by the govt that you actually support. Actually, they do want to be here. In a nutshell (ha!), they want the benefits of society without paying for it or following the laws. As an example, their bullshit about “traveling” when driving without registration, insurance or a license. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/147 "2019-07-30T18:44:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > When their actions consist of renouncing their citizenship, then their actions demonstrate that they don’t want to be here. It’s not that easy to leave, in order to leave, you have to have a place that will let you come, and nobody wants them. > > Right, they don’t want to be here. You’ve already been corrected on this, I hope it is enough for you to see your error. It is very easy to leave the US for supposedly greener grass. > [@](#): > > Not at all. I would give them what they want, the ability to leave, but since those you are supporting have already built gulags to hold those you don’t like, I am just pointing out that they deserve to be there more than those that you put in there by force of govt. Nobody that I support has built gulags. Those I support advocate for the abolition of the US government, or at least a drastic downsizing including the gulags and federal prisons. > [@](#): > > You can save your hysterics for actual people who are actually being persecuted by the govt that you actually support. My hysterics are reserved for advocates of extremely violent policies, such as the forcible removal of individuals from the country. > [@begbert2](#): > > In all seriousness, it’s pretty obvious that they want to be here; they just don’t want to have to obey the law. It’s kind of an interesting (and demented) little space they’ve carved out for themselves - they think they should be able to commit crimes, but they don’t picture themselves as criminals - they think they can bend the law to their will. > > I think that criminals should be dealt with like criminals, and that people who renounce their citizenship should be dealt with like people who aren’t citizens. A sovereign citizen who actually acts on the sovereignty that no sensible person agrees that they have would be in the “criminal” category, which would make them subject to prison - “gulags”, if you hyperbolically prefer. Which actions get you in the gulag? Saying weird things to a judge? Tax avoidance? Tax protest? Driving without a license? > [@](#): > > If they chose to renounce their citizenship, then they should instead be deported, but of course they won’t do that - they don’t want to be noncitizens, they want to be \*super-\*citizens, above the law because they make their own. Renouncing citizenship is a political act. I am just clarifying. You believe some types of political dissidents should be deported? There are plenty of individuals who believe themselves above the law. Coppers, judges, politicians, corporations who seek special legislation, not to mention kidnappers, thieves, and murderers(or do I repeat myself). These are some of the most respected people in society. Strange that you don’t also call for their deportation. Perhaps it isn’t really about someone believing himself above the law. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/148 "2019-07-30T18:55:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Which actions get you in the gulag? Saying weird things to a judge? Tax avoidance? Tax protest? Driving without a license? Hmm. Should I point out that he’s asking me to dictate the entire US legal code to him? Naah. Too much work. So, yes, saying weird things to a judge, tax avoidance, tax protest, and driving without a license are all crimes that result in instant incarceration in America. Without trial. Closely followed by execution. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Renouncing citizenship is a political act. I am just clarifying. You believe some types of political dissidents should be deported? Yes, I believe that the specific type of political dissidents who renounce their citizenship should be deported, due to the whole “have decided not to be a citizen anymore” thing. I’m not sure what’s hard to understand about this. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There are plenty of individuals who believe themselves above the law. Coppers, judges, politicians, corporations who seek special legislation, not to mention kidnappers, thieves, and murderers(or do I repeat myself). These are some of the most respected people in society. Strange that you don’t also call for their deportation. Perhaps it isn’t really about someone believing himself above the law. So, see, if you read for comprehension, you would have noticed that I said “but of course they won’t do that”. As I said very, very, very, very clearly, _criminals_ go to the gulag, _non-citizens_ get deported. And as I also said, it’s not about them believing they’re above the law - it’s about the ones who act on that belief. You know, the criminals. (Or the no-longer-citizens.) If one just sits on their butt and whines that they should be god emperor of the world we don’t do anything to them. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/149 "2019-07-30T19:01:13Z")
Thanks for clarifying your support of violence upon political dissidents. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/150 "2019-07-30T20:27:01Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Thanks for clarifying your support of violence upon political dissidents. I assume you’re talking about where I said that in the US various non-crimes would result in immediate execution, because no other part of my post described violence of any kind. I was absolutely serious about the execution-without-trial-for-noncrimes thing, by the way. It’s totally how law works. Seriously, not a single person in the US is still alive. Go look; it’s true. ETA: Oh, and by the way, thank you for this also - I’m glad that you finally stopped beating your wife. It’s so good that you don’t do that anymore. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/151 "2019-07-30T20:59:58Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Actually, they do want to be here. In a nutshell (ha!), they want the benefits of society without paying for it or following the laws. As an example, their bullshit about “traveling” when driving without registration, insurance or a license. Yeah, but they don’t want to be here, in The United States, they want to live in some fantasy creation of their These United States, where everything is free, and they need to follow no laws. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You’ve already been corrected on this, I hope it is enough for you to see your error. It is very easy to leave the US for supposedly greener grass. Not really. If you do not have a passport, and your reason for leaving your country is that you have renounced your citizenship, which country would give you a visa for entree? > [@](#): > > Nobody that I support has built gulags. Those I support advocate for the abolition of the US government, or at least a drastic downsizing including the gulags and federal prisons. And by supporting those, you usher into power authoritarians who would lock you up as soon as look at you. You are easily duped, and do the work of the authroatiarin for them. > [@](#): > > My hysterics are reserved for advocates of extremely violent policies, such as the forcible removal of individuals from the country. Then you must have some hysterics for what the current administration is doing in regards to its deportation policies. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/152 "2019-07-30T21:46:55Z")
This episode of The WillFarnaby Show has been brought to you by Safelite. Safelite: When you turn a routine traffic stop into a felony arrest, Safelite is there for you! And, TASER: TASER, What part of “Please exit your vehicle.” didn’t you understand? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/153 "2019-07-30T23:10:02Z")
Just a note for the posters discussing those who renounce their citizenship above: those “sovcits” morons are not and have not renounced their US citizenship. They cannot do so while within the territory of the United States. Renunciation must be accomplished overseas in front of a consular official at a US consulate, while also paying the appropriate fee (currently $2,350) and proving that you have no outstanding taxes to be paid, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/154 "2019-07-30T23:16:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Just a note for the posters discussing those who renounce their citizenship above: those “sovcits” morons are not and have not renounced their US citizenship. They cannot do so while within the territory of the United States. Renunciation must be accomplished overseas in front of a consular official at a US consulate, while also paying the appropriate fee (currently $2,350) and proving that you have no outstanding taxes to be paid, IIRC. Well, they can’t renounce their citizenship _properly_ - not that these fuckwads are particularly interested in doing things according to the proper rules of law. Not that it matters in this case - the fuckwads in question aren’t _interested_ in renouncing their citizenship. They like it here - they want the _government_ to leave, or at least get out of their way. Suffice to say that the government isn’t going to get out of their way, nor is it going to play along with the idea that it doesn’t have sovereignty over these so-called sovereign citizens. Unless they _do_ leave, via proper methods, they’re going to lose every single conflict they have with authority, and reap the legal rewards of any tomfoolery they perpetrate. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/155 "2019-08-02T04:30:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Just a note for the posters discussing those who renounce their citizenship above: those “sovcits” morons are not and have not renounced their US citizenship. They cannot do so while within the territory of the United States. Renunciation must be accomplished overseas in front of a consular official at a US consulate, while also paying the appropriate fee (currently $2,350) and proving that you have no outstanding taxes to be paid, IIRC. So we should do them a favor and make a special rule for them. \ I am an Article 4 traveler and do not bind myself to any joinder with this admiralty court. \ So you do not believe you need to obey any US laws? \ That is correct. I am a Freeman of Natural Body and have not agreed to any contract of joindership with manmade governments. \ So you have voluntarily renounced your United States citizenship and we are putting you on the first flight to [Eritrea](https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/africa/eritrea/report-eritrea/). ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/156 "2019-08-02T20:12:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What SCs get out of it is a sense of power over their own lives. It’s actually kind of like the crazies who believe in QAnon. Both conspiracy theories allow a person to pretend, or maybe quite believe, that they understand things that are actually way too hard to understand; that the government, impersonal and complex and powerful, can be reduced to a very simple set of good buys, bad guys, and simple rules, like it is in the movies. > (snip) There’s another element at work in the thinking of sovcits and conspiracy theorists, I think: a desire for a sense of coherence. Your son is develops autism. Why did this happen? Genetics, environmental toxins, metabolic imbalances, sheer bad luck; who knows what tipped the scale? Hard to understand just why a random mélange of factors caused this. It’s much easier, and more satisfying, to say that it’s because the gummint and Big Pharma forced you to vaccinate him. It’s not only about having someone to blame. It’s also about having a sense that misfortunes have a cause, that someone or something is in charge. “My life sucks, but at least I know why: the Jews/government/Illuminati/aliens from Tralfamadore arranged it that way.” We’re hard-wired to seek patterns, after all; and a seemingly uncaused phenomenon makes us uncomfortable. Umberto Eco explored that sort of thinking in _Foucault’s Pendulum_. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I still maintain the Confederacy was an 1860-version of this movement. Oh, come on; they didn’t even _have_ auto glass and tasers in 1861. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/157 "2019-08-03T01:12:02Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > …\ So you have voluntarily renounced your United States citizenship and we are putting you on the first flight to [Eritrea](https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/africa/eritrea/report-eritrea/). Upon further consideration, Your Honor… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/158 "2019-10-03T15:08:53Z")
An AMU article about the dangers posed by SovCitzs: [What You Don't Know About Sovereign Citizens Can Hurt You](https://inpublicsafety.com/2019/09/what-you-dont-know-about-sovereign-citizens-can-hurt-you/?utm_source=IPS&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_content=https:inpublicsafety.com201909what-you-dont-know-about-sovereign-citizens-can-hurt-you&utm_campaign=20191001IPS) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/159 "2019-10-03T17:03:10Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > There’s another element at work in the thinking of sovcits and conspiracy theorists, I think: a desire for a sense of coherence. Your son is develops autism. Why did this happen? Genetics, environmental toxins, metabolic imbalances, sheer bad luck; who knows what tipped the scale? Hard to understand just why a random mélange of factors caused this. It’s much easier, and more satisfying, to say that it’s because the gummint and Big Pharma forced you to vaccinate him. I wholeheartedly agree. The universe is complex beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend. Misfortune and difficulty is often - actually, almost always - the product of forces we either do not really understand, or only barely so. There are no sure bets. It’s very, very hard to grasp, and harder to accept. The law is only one billionth of a billionth as complex as life in general, and yet it’s still astoundingly hard to fully understand. Look, for instance, at this week’s verdict and sentence in the infamous Amber Guyger murder trial. Most people are to one extent or another dissatisfied with the result; either they think Guyger should have been acquitted/convicted of a lesser charge, or convicted and sent to prison for a thousand years or hanged. In fact, the verdict and sentence were perfectly appropriate - but in fairness, not only is it natural to think of these things emotionally, but the Texas Penal Code section on homicide is a long bit of highly technical reading, using terms of art that are often hard to know the technical meaning of. And that’s one of the most simple crimes you can imagine. The complexities of tax law or divorce law or legal procedure are just incredible. To a person caught up in some kind of legal trouble the temptation to believe there is some WAY simpler explanation, something that explains why life is so hard, can be sufficiently overwhelming to defeat reason. We do this is so many areas of life, just usually at a less insane and ridiculous level. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/160 "2019-10-03T18:44:52Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Upon further consideration, Your Honor… Save some money. We have all these detainment camps full of people who shouldn’t be there. Let them leave and fill the camps with SovCits, who **should** be there. I mean, they can’t prove they are legally in the USA. Detain them! ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851/161 "2019-10-04T20:24:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > To a person caught up in some kind of legal trouble the temptation to believe there is some WAY simpler explanation, something that explains why life is so hard, can be sufficiently overwhelming to defeat reason. This is backwards. People are in legal trouble \*because \*of their sov cit nonsense like not registering their car or having a driver’s licence because they are an Article IV traveler or not paying taxes because Ohio is not a state. It boils down that sov cits are selfish - wanting all of the rights of being a citizen without any of the responsibilities so they willingly accept any BS “logic” that justifies their self-centered views. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-sovereign-citizens-get-out-of-all-their-nonsense/834851.md?page=9)