There is a difference between being stripped of your rights, and willfully renouncing your citizenship.
If someone renounces their citizenship, then what do the rest of us owe them? They are far more deserving of a place in an ICE detention center than someone who actually wants to be here.
Sovereign citizens don’t want to be here? It’s pretty easy to leave, why don’t they? Of course they want to be here, as demonstrated by their actions. They don’t want to participate in nonvoluntary associations.
You would have them removed or gulaged by force of government. Yes this puts you in rather nefarious company.
When their actions consist of renouncing their citizenship, then their actions demonstrate that they don’t want to be here. It’s not that easy to leave, in order to leave, you have to have a place that will let you come, and nobody wants them.
Right, they don’t want to be here.
Not at all. I would give them what they want, the ability to leave, but since those you are supporting have already built gulags to hold those you don’t like, I am just pointing out that they deserve to be there more than those that you put in there by force of govt.
You can save your hysterics for actual people who are actually being persecuted by the govt that you actually support.
In all seriousness, it’s pretty obvious that they want to be here; they just don’t want to have to obey the law. It’s kind of an interesting (and demented) little space they’ve carved out for themselves - they think they should be able to commit crimes, but they don’t picture themselves as criminals - they think they can bend the law to their will.
I think that criminals should be dealt with like criminals, and that people who renounce their citizenship should be dealt with like people who aren’t citizens. A sovereign citizen who actually acts on the sovereignty that no sensible person agrees that they have would be in the “criminal” category, which would make them subject to prison - “gulags”, if you hyperbolically prefer.
If they chose to renounce their citizenship, then they should instead be deported, but of course they won’t do that - they don’t want to be noncitizens, they want to be *super-*citizens, above the law because they make their own.
Actually, they do want to be here. In a nutshell (ha!), they want the benefits of society without paying for it or following the laws. As an example, their bullshit about “traveling” when driving without registration, insurance or a license.
You’ve already been corrected on this, I hope it is enough for you to see your error. It is very easy to leave the US for supposedly greener grass.
Nobody that I support has built gulags. Those I support advocate for the abolition of the US government, or at least a drastic downsizing including the gulags and federal prisons.
My hysterics are reserved for advocates of extremely violent policies, such as the forcible removal of individuals from the country.
Which actions get you in the gulag? Saying weird things to a judge? Tax avoidance? Tax protest? Driving without a license?
Renouncing citizenship is a political act. I am just clarifying. You believe some types of political dissidents should be deported?
There are plenty of individuals who believe themselves above the law. Coppers, judges, politicians, corporations who seek special legislation, not to mention kidnappers, thieves, and murderers(or do I repeat myself). These are some of the most respected people in society. Strange that you don’t also call for their deportation. Perhaps it isn’t really about someone believing himself above the law.
Hmm. Should I point out that he’s asking me to dictate the entire US legal code to him?
Naah. Too much work. So, yes, saying weird things to a judge, tax avoidance, tax protest, and driving without a license are all crimes that result in instant incarceration in America. Without trial. Closely followed by execution.
Yes, I believe that the specific type of political dissidents who renounce their citizenship should be deported, due to the whole “have decided not to be a citizen anymore” thing.
I’m not sure what’s hard to understand about this.
So, see, if you read for comprehension, you would have noticed that I said “but of course they won’t do that”. As I said very, very, very, very clearly, criminals go to the gulag, non-citizens get deported.
And as I also said, it’s not about them believing they’re above the law - it’s about the ones who act on that belief. You know, the criminals. (Or the no-longer-citizens.) If one just sits on their butt and whines that they should be god emperor of the world we don’t do anything to them.
Thanks for clarifying your support of violence upon political dissidents.
I assume you’re talking about where I said that in the US various non-crimes would result in immediate execution, because no other part of my post described violence of any kind.
I was absolutely serious about the execution-without-trial-for-noncrimes thing, by the way. It’s totally how law works. Seriously, not a single person in the US is still alive. Go look; it’s true.
ETA: Oh, and by the way, thank you for this also - I’m glad that you finally stopped beating your wife. It’s so good that you don’t do that anymore.
Yeah, but they don’t want to be here, in The United States, they want to live in some fantasy creation of their These United States, where everything is free, and they need to follow no laws.
Not really. If you do not have a passport, and your reason for leaving your country is that you have renounced your citizenship, which country would give you a visa for entree?
And by supporting those, you usher into power authoritarians who would lock you up as soon as look at you. You are easily duped, and do the work of the authroatiarin for them.
Then you must have some hysterics for what the current administration is doing in regards to its deportation policies.
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CMC fnord!
Just a note for the posters discussing those who renounce their citizenship above: those “sovcits” morons are not and have not renounced their US citizenship. They cannot do so while within the territory of the United States. Renunciation must be accomplished overseas in front of a consular official at a US consulate, while also paying the appropriate fee (currently $2,350) and proving that you have no outstanding taxes to be paid, IIRC.
Well, they can’t renounce their citizenship properly - not that these fuckwads are particularly interested in doing things according to the proper rules of law.
Not that it matters in this case - the fuckwads in question aren’t interested in renouncing their citizenship. They like it here - they want the government to leave, or at least get out of their way.
Suffice to say that the government isn’t going to get out of their way, nor is it going to play along with the idea that it doesn’t have sovereignty over these so-called sovereign citizens. Unless they do leave, via proper methods, they’re going to lose every single conflict they have with authority, and reap the legal rewards of any tomfoolery they perpetrate.
So we should do them a favor and make a special rule for them.
<SoV of the family cI’T> I am an Article 4 traveler and do not bind myself to any joinder with this admiralty court.
<Judge> So you do not believe you need to obey any US laws?
<SoV of the family cI’T> That is correct. I am a Freeman of Natural Body and have not agreed to any contract of joindership with manmade governments.
<Judge> So you have voluntarily renounced your United States citizenship and we are putting you on the first flight to Eritrea.
There’s another element at work in the thinking of sovcits and conspiracy theorists, I think: a desire for a sense of coherence. Your son is develops autism. Why did this happen? Genetics, environmental toxins, metabolic imbalances, sheer bad luck; who knows what tipped the scale? Hard to understand just why a random mélange of factors caused this. It’s much easier, and more satisfying, to say that it’s because the gummint and Big Pharma forced you to vaccinate him.
It’s not only about having someone to blame. It’s also about having a sense that misfortunes have a cause, that someone or something is in charge. “My life sucks, but at least I know why: the Jews/government/Illuminati/aliens from Tralfamadore arranged it that way.” We’re hard-wired to seek patterns, after all; and a seemingly uncaused phenomenon makes us uncomfortable. Umberto Eco explored that sort of thinking in Foucault’s Pendulum.
Oh, come on; they didn’t even have auto glass and tasers in 1861. 
Upon further consideration, Your Honor…
An AMU article about the dangers posed by SovCitzs: What You Don't Know About Sovereign Citizens Can Hurt You
I wholeheartedly agree.
The universe is complex beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend. Misfortune and difficulty is often - actually, almost always - the product of forces we either do not really understand, or only barely so. There are no sure bets. It’s very, very hard to grasp, and harder to accept.
The law is only one billionth of a billionth as complex as life in general, and yet it’s still astoundingly hard to fully understand. Look, for instance, at this week’s verdict and sentence in the infamous Amber Guyger murder trial. Most people are to one extent or another dissatisfied with the result; either they think Guyger should have been acquitted/convicted of a lesser charge, or convicted and sent to prison for a thousand years or hanged. In fact, the verdict and sentence were perfectly appropriate - but in fairness, not only is it natural to think of these things emotionally, but the Texas Penal Code section on homicide is a long bit of highly technical reading, using terms of art that are often hard to know the technical meaning of. And that’s one of the most simple crimes you can imagine. The complexities of tax law or divorce law or legal procedure are just incredible. To a person caught up in some kind of legal trouble the temptation to believe there is some WAY simpler explanation, something that explains why life is so hard, can be sufficiently overwhelming to defeat reason.
We do this is so many areas of life, just usually at a less insane and ridiculous level.
Save some money. We have all these detainment camps full of people who shouldn’t be there. Let them leave and fill the camps with SovCits, who should be there. I mean, they can’t prove they are legally in the USA. Detain them!
This is backwards. People are in legal trouble *because *of their sov cit nonsense like not registering their car or having a driver’s licence because they are an Article IV traveler or not paying taxes because Ohio is not a state. It boils down that sov cits are selfish - wanting all of the rights of being a citizen without any of the responsibilities so they willingly accept any BS “logic” that justifies their self-centered views.