# what do the Republicans have to negotiate with? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768 "2013-10-09T13:47:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/201 "2013-10-10T00:45:08Z")
Now, I disagree with what the House Republicans are doing, both in their objectives and their tactics, with every fiber of my being. But I’m not sure it qualifies as extortion. Maybe a lawyer can weigh in, but my understanding is that in contexts like this one a necessary condition of extortion is that the extorting party use its leverage to extract something to which it has no legal claim, ie wrongful inducement. (Like if I use the threat of publishing compromising photographs to extract a payment.) In this instance, though, is there any basis for denying that the Republicans technically have the right to shut down the government? So, I’d say it’s better described as driving a hard bargain–one of the most dickishly hard bargains, for sure, in the whole history of bargains, hardness, and dicks–but not extortion per se. In fact, I still don’t see any reason to describe it as anything other than a negotiation. House Republicans have the power to shut down the government, and obstructing the ACA is worth more to them than keeping the government running. That’s a retarded but allowable position. I’d say the answer to the OP is as simple as that. Does this mean that Obama is unreasonable for refusing to negotiate on those terms? I’d say not. From his perspective, agreeing to negotiate with an opposition that’s willing to shut down the government over a policy dispute sets an unacceptable precedent, which outweighs the temporary shittiness of the shutdown. I would agree with him in that, and I think the resilience of his approval ratings the past couple weeks suggests that a good number of Americans in general agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/202 "2013-10-10T00:49:08Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > …Maybe a lawyer can weigh in… Maybe? Shit, you just try and stop 'em! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/203 "2013-10-10T00:54:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. They already [voted for CR that did not defund Obamacare](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/house-passes-budget-bill-delaying-health-mandate-2013-09-30-20914517). Keep up. So why aren’t you taking my bet? What is it you’re running from? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/204 "2013-10-10T01:20:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You really think that was not a misleading representation, **Terr**? That nobody would actually bother to click on it? Really? What was “misleading”? Republican House passed a bill that combined CR with delay of individual mandate. No “defunding Obamacare”. QED. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/205 "2013-10-10T01:22:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s not a very reasonable way to frame that. > > The individual mandate being removed will cost the insured quite a bit of money and certainly impact the ACA: You guys keep trying to push this dishonesty thru and I will correct it every time. No, the bill would not remove the individual mandate. It would delay it by a year. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/206 "2013-10-10T01:24:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So why aren’t you taking my bet? What is it you’re running from? If your bet is that Congressional Republicans refuse to vote for CR that doesn’t defund Obamacare, I will take it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/207 "2013-10-10T01:28:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If your bet is that Congressional Republicans refuse to vote for CR that doesn’t defund Obamacare, I will take it. Read what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/208 "2013-10-10T01:32:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Read what I wrote. Read the thread. Understand the context. What some random Republican out there who is not a Congressman thinks is irrelevant, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/209 "2013-10-10T01:38:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Read the thread. Understand the context. What some random Republican out there who is not a Congressman thinks is irrelevant, isn’t it? Stop changing the subject. Go back and read my post where I offered the bet. Will you take it or not? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/210 "2013-10-10T01:42:25Z")
> [@](#): > > …What some random Republican out there who is not a Congressman thinks is irrelevant, isn’t it?.. Hard to tell. A junior Senator with about a year in office talks louder than the Speaker of the House, then shuts up entirely. John McCain, Presidential candidate of the Party is history, we are reliably informed. Romney is forgotten but not gone, and GeeDubya…well, the less said the better, yes? Oh, and Rand Paul is their intellectual powerhouse. Perhaps they could play follow the leader if they had such. Right now we got a lemming stampede. “Some random Republican out there” isn’t relevant? Well, OK, who is? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/211 "2013-10-10T01:48:08Z")
Yeah, I’ve been wondering all this time about “negotiation”: 1. What could the Democrats/Obama offer that the Republicans would accept? 2. What are the Republicans offering to the Democrats? If they don’t need to offer anything, why not? Does that change the nature of the discussion out of “negotiation”? 3. Assume the Democrats give the Republicans everything they want. What happens the next time the debt ceiling needs to be raised, and/or a budget needs to be approved? Will this happen all over again? If not, why not? They seem like pretty easy questions; can someone point me to the post(s) where conservatives/Republicans directly answer them? This is a long thread, so I was hoping to get the Reader’s Digest version. 🙂 Hell, if any conservative pundits online answer them, bring on the links! ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/212 "2013-10-10T01:49:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Stop changing the subject. Go back and read my post where I offered the bet. Will you take it or not? If not, why not? Of course I won’t. Because random Republicans somewhere are irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/213 "2013-10-10T03:48:38Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > 1. What could the Democrats/Obama offer that the Republicans would accept? > > 2. What are the Republicans offering to the Democrats? If they don’t need to offer anything, why not? Does that change the nature of the discussion out of “negotiation”? > > 3. Assume the Democrats give the Republicans everything they want. What happens the next time the debt ceiling needs to be raised, and/or a budget needs to be approved? Will this happen all over again? If not, why not? **Terr** , **magellan01** , **Bricker** ; I think these are valid questions, care to give your opinion? **Shodan**? **Sam**? Anybody? This thread is in GD, and while there is plenty of crap going back and forth I have sincere questions and concerns about this strategy that the house Republicans have adopted and where it will lead. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/214 "2013-10-10T03:58:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You guys keep trying to push this dishonesty thru and I will correct it every time. No, the bill would not remove the individual mandate. It would delay it by a year. And then what? Why wouldn’t they delay it the year after that? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/215 "2013-10-10T04:08:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Maybe? Shit, you just try and stop 'em! :dubious: Think you so little of lawyers? From Robert Bolt’s _A Man for All Seasons:_ > [@](#): > > William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law! > > Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? > > William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that! > > Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake! ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/216 "2013-10-10T04:11:58Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > **Terr** , **magellan01** , **Bricker** ; I think these are valid questions, care to give your opinion? **Shodan**? **Sam**? Anybody? This thread is in GD, and while there is plenty of crap going back and forth I have sincere questions and concerns about this strategy that the house Republicans have adopted and where it will lead. 1. What could the Democrats/Obama offer that the Republicans would accept? A: I believe the Senate passing that bill that House last passed, that delayed the individual mandate by a year and removed subsidies from Congressmen and their staff would definitely do. In fact, it would do it by definition - once the Senate passes it and Obama signs it, it’s the law. 1. What are the Republicans offering to the Democrats? If they don’t need to offer anything, why not? Does that change the nature of the discussion out of “negotiation”? A: Republicans are offering the CR. The Democrats want that, right? 1. Assume the Democrats give the Republicans everything they want. What happens the next time the debt ceiling needs to be raised, and/or a budget needs to be approved? Will this happen all over again? If not, why not? A: something similar may happen. Or not. About half of debt ceiling increases in the past had strings attached to them. So it’s not like it is unprecedented. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/217 "2013-10-10T04:13:20Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > And then what? Why wouldn’t they delay it the year after that? They may try. Of course, since Obamacare is such a resounding success by 2014 elections, Democrats will probably be in control of the House as well, so Republicans couldn’t even try. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/218 "2013-10-10T04:17:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > They may try. Of course, since Obamacare is such a resounding success by . . . **Now,** actually. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/219 "2013-10-10T04:18:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **Now,** actually. So then no worries, right? 2014 election is in the bag. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/220 "2013-10-10T04:20:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 1. What could the Democrats/Obama offer that the Republicans would accept? Total repeal of the ACA. Nothing else comes to my mind, nor to theirs, nor to yours. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768.md?page=12)