# what do the Republicans have to negotiate with? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768 "2013-10-09T13:47:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/41 "2013-10-09T17:14:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > …This threat is about whether it’s extortion. It’s not. Freudian typo? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/42 "2013-10-09T17:18:40Z")
Because it won’t stop there. They’ll make more and more demands each time this comes up until they have their way 100%. There’s a reason that police don’t give in to hostage taker’s demands. It only encourages the behavior. We do not want this behavior to be encouraged. You wouldn’t want the democrats to do this same thing when they run the house would you? ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/43 "2013-10-09T17:23:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t think anyone wants that to happen. But if we all can agree that this needs to be averted, shouldn’t Reid pass the bill the house put forth that funds everything completely and just delays the individual mandate of Obamacare for one year? If all the ramifications are so bad, why not just agree to a one year delay for that one aspect? Perhaps this concession or something like it will be negotiated once the government is funded. You have to look at the bigger picture. If the democrats allow the republicans to push their agenda this way - then it will soon become the established norm in this country that the party that controls congress will push their agenda through each time a fiscal bill comes up by threatening the defunding or default of the government. Regarding this, realize that congress already approved the programs for this budget - they are now just not funding it. If they want to close parks they should put a bill forward to close parks, not just cut all funding to parks. And so on for all the ‘non essential’ programs. If you want to avoid debt ceilings, put forward bills that cut programs enough so that we don’t hit the current ceiling. But they are not doing that. Also, the republicans will not control congress forever. Gerrymandering makes them look safe for the time being but the Dems controlled it for almost the entire 20th century and things will change someday. So if Republicans were not short sighted they would realize that establishing this type of governance will come back to haunt them too. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/44 "2013-10-09T17:28:41Z")
The comparison to union negotiation is quite silly. With union contracts, labor and management are in adversarial relations but both realize that the company has to be able to survive. Often, the company will open its books to demonstrate what it can and can’t afford. They work it out and enter into a freely negotiated settlement that gives both sides something. The unions aren’t threatening to burn the plant down because they don’t want it burned down. Republicans have decided that elections only matter when they win them and believe that by threatening to burn down the govenment they can get repeal of any law they don’t like. If they get their way with Obamacare, Medicare will be next. Then Social Security. The Civil Rights Act. The 20th Century. Democrats have never said “Oh, boy! The debt ceiling is coming! We can make this Republican president dance to our tune or we’ll just let her burn!” Obama has to stand tough- to give in to GOP terrorism now would mean the end of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/45 "2013-10-09T17:32:01Z")
I’d just like to point out that a business conducting a lockout – as opposed to workers going on strike – is the more appropriate comparison here. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/46 "2013-10-09T17:32:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But if we all can agree that this needs to be averted, shouldn’t Reid pass the bill the house put forth that funds everything completely and just delays the individual mandate of Obamacare for one year? Why shouldn’t Boehner just put the clean bill up to a House vote, and \*not \*sabotage a popular law, given that he’s failed to do it so far by honorable and democratic means? If Obamacare really is so bad (for the country, not just for the GOP’s electoral prospects), what real good would a one-year delay do, anyway? (Yes, we know what’s behind that, let’s see if you do too). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/47 "2013-10-09T17:36:09Z")
Not strictly fair to call the law “popular”. It isn’t, its more popular than it was, true, but that isn’t the same thing. I would entirely agree that the lack of popularity is largely due to a hysterical campaign of disinformation, but that’s the cause, not the fact. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/48 "2013-10-09T17:38:00Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It depends, do the Democrats or the Republicans currently control the country and pass the labor laws? > > 😉 Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/49 "2013-10-09T17:38:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. Alternatives. Workers realistically lack an alternative to striking (for many workers, it’s impractical to go find a better-paying job). Republicans have an alternative (they can offer something that Democrats want but that Republicans don’t want, in exchange for getting something Republicans want but Democrats don’t want). There’s a different alternative as well. Republicans had the chance to debate the Affordable Care Act before its passage, and to fight for provisions within the law that would have made it more to their liking. If they felt it was unconstitutional, they were free to challenge it in the Supreme Court, which is tasked with deciding such matters. If they thought it was unpopular, they were able to challenge it in the only poll that really matters; but we’ve had elections since then and the people have spoken. That’s the process that has served us for a couple hundred years, and those are the alternatives the Republicans had open to them. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/50 "2013-10-09T17:40:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not strictly fair to call the law “popular”. It isn’t, its more popular than it was, true, but that isn’t the same thing. It’s substantially more popular than unpopular, as we’ve discussed many times - despite the campaign of lies the Republicans, their sponsors, and their propaganda arms has been strenuously engaged in for, well, decades. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/51 "2013-10-09T17:43:13Z")
I’ll concede the point if only because I hate, hate, hate semantic arguments. Always leads to somebody posting a dictionary definition like that proves something. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/52 "2013-10-09T17:46:28Z")
\*What \*semantics? We’re only talking about polls - and whether or not they include “doesn’t go far enough” as an option. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/53 "2013-10-09T17:53:39Z")
Good news, everyone! Several of the smartest Republican evah! have discovered that a failure to increase the debt ceiling is not big deal! Yay! You can find substantiating quotes here: > **[Growing chorus of Republicans say raising debt limit not that big a deal](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/09/1245579/-Growing-chorus-of-Republicans-say-raising-debt-limit-not-that-big-a-deal?detail=hide)** > > Rand Paul wants the crazy ... Warning! _Daily Kos_ contains corrosive facts and disagreeable truths. Tighty Righties are advised to proceed with shields up! > [@](#): > > “It really is irresponsible of the president to try to scare the markets,” said Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky. “If you don’t raise your debt ceiling, all you’re saying is, ‘We’re going to be balancing our budget.’ So if you put it in those terms, all these scary terms of, ‘Oh my goodness, the world’s going to end’ — if we balance the budget, the world’s going to end? Why don’t we spend what comes in?” > > “If you propose it that way,” he said of not raising the debt limit, “the American public will say that sounds like a pretty reasonable idea.” Why, yes, put it that way! And if you take a sufficient dose of cyanide, you can prevent premature aging! Or any aging at all, for that matter! The American public will say that’s a pretty reasonable idea! From Rand Paul, the intellectual powerhouse of the Republican Party! “You just keep thinkin’, Butch. That’s what you’re good at.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/54 "2013-10-09T17:58:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Good news, everyone! Several of the smartest Republican evah! have discovered that a failure to increase the debt ceiling is not big deal! Yay! Moody’s agrees with them. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics-live/liveblog/live-updates-the-shutdown-4/?hpid=z2#c1e3ada3-dc00-41d8-92cb-327c5c814d82](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics-live/liveblog/live-updates-the-shutdown-4/?hpid=z2#c1e3ada3-dc00-41d8-92cb-327c5c814d82) ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/55 "2013-10-09T18:00:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Moody’s agrees with them. > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics-live/liveblog/live-updates-the-shutdown-4/?hpid=z2#c1e3ada3-dc00-41d8-92cb-327c5c814d82](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics-live/liveblog/live-updates-the-shutdown-4/?hpid=z2#c1e3ada3-dc00-41d8-92cb-327c5c814d82) Great, so they don’t actually have any leverage then, correct? So we can end this all right now? What’s that, they claim to know that it won’t be a big deal, yet they still want to extort using it? It can’t be possible that Republicans are talking out of both sides of their mouth can it? So which is it? Not a big deal, therefore no leverage, or big deal therefore leverage? Pick one. Can’t have it both ways Hoss. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/56 "2013-10-09T18:06:48Z")
What, no quotes from the citation? Here, let me help you out… > [@](#): > > “The budget deficit was considerably larger in 2011 than it is currently, so the magnitude of the necessary spending cuts needed after 17 October is lower now than it was then,” the memo says. And Moody’s take on that may well be true, so long as everybody takes a “We’ll just muddle through this, and eventually everything will be fine” approach. But the financial systems are made up of people, and people are not strictly rational. So we will be putting ourselves in the position of crossing our fingers and praying to Mammon that nobody panics. Lovely. You endorse that position, do you? Or is this one of those "just sayin’ " sort of things? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/57 "2013-10-09T18:15:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Freudian typo? Yes. It might have been. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/58 "2013-10-09T18:17:55Z")
Oh, just havin’ some fun with you, Slim. I knew what you were saying, and that’s all that counts. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/59 "2013-10-09T18:25:19Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Great, so they don’t actually have any leverage then, correct? So we can end this all right now? What’s that, they claim to know that it won’t be a big deal, yet they still want to extort using it? It can’t be possible that Republicans are talking out of both sides of their mouth can it? > > So which is it? Not a big deal, therefore no leverage, or big deal therefore leverage? > > Pick one. Can’t have it both ways Hoss. Factually it may not be big deal. But the market is not always rational. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/60 "2013-10-09T18:25:28Z")
> **[As Pressure Mounts, House G.O.P. Weighs Short-Term Debt Deal (Published 2013)](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/10/us/politics/business-groups-urge-congress-to-reopen-as-shutdown-drags-on.html)** > > House Republicans began to consider a path to raise the debt ceiling as Congressional leaders from both parties started some preliminary discussions aimed at reopening the government. > [@](#): > > House Republicans, facing the ninth day of a government shutdown, appeared increasingly isolated on Wednesday from even their strongest backers, with business groups demanding the immediate reopening of the government and benefactors such as Koch Industries publicly distancing themselves from the shutdown fight… OK, so the money Republicans are yanking the chain. Is there anybody left on the other end? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768.md?page=4)