# what do the Republicans have to negotiate with? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768 "2013-10-09T13:47:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/101 "2013-10-09T20:00:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Democrats (at least judging from this board) already feel pretty good about themselves. They won’t if Obamacare goes away. Why don’t you care about Democrats’ feeeeeeelings? So if you are to succeed in eliminating Obamacare, what are you offering Democrats to make them feel better about it? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/102 "2013-10-09T20:01:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Why shouldn’t Boehner just put the clean bill up to a House vote, and \*not \*sabotage a popular law, given that he’s failed to do it so far by honorable and democratic means? The law is not as popular as you think. And now that we see more of it and its ramifications, even less so. And the Reps are working within the system. Tell me, if you were a congressman and a law was being instituted that you strongly thought was bad for the country, would you just keep your mouth shut and go along because, “Well, the law was passed!” Think about some of the laws you don’t like and didn’t like in history. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If Obamacare really is so bad (for the country, not just for the GOP’s electoral prospects), what real good would a one-year delay do, anyway? (Yes, we know what’s behind that, let’s see if you do too). Because we’d be able to see how it goes without people being penalized and the whole system reaching a point of no return. Why the delays for the other groups? The exemptions. Especially those for the congress. If it’s so freaking great, why aren’t those who authored and imposed it upon us champing at the bit to be part of it? So, if it’s so much unicorns and rainbows as the proponents believe, why not allow one more additional year delay to one part and calmly and confidently prove the detractors wrong.? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/103 "2013-10-09T20:02:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > They won’t if Obamacare goes away. For the Nth time, Republicans are not demanding, currently, that Obamacare “goes away”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/104 "2013-10-09T20:02:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not according to the bills that the House passed. He was referring to your epic fail in the original bill passage. The only proposal you guys could make at the time was “Fuck off” and “Death panels!”. The only campaign platform you guys had about it after the fact was “Repeal and replace”. The only actual bill you guys have come up with since is simply “Repeal”, with no “Replace”. You’ve tried and failed with that over 40 times already. Now you’re Sheriff Bart holding a gun to your own head, something you tried once before and failed in an epic way. You’ve not only failed comprehensively in every legitimate and even illegitimate way, you haven’t even learned from your own past, and now you’ve simply made yourselves laughingstocks. So what is there left to respect from you? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/105 "2013-10-09T20:07:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Edit: **Magellan** , saying they’re putting Obama’s Legacy on the bargaining board is an insidious and terrible idea. The legacy, as you admit, is whether the country does well under Obama, so really they’re putting the country’s welfare on the table. If all they have to offer is the ability not to harm the nation, the obvious thing to do is to take that ability away from them next chance we get. Obama’s legacy is a fact. He will have one—fact! He wants it to be a good one, like any President does. It’s more on his mind than anyone else’s. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard the pundits talk about his not negotiating because it’s hie “signature legislation”. Like that overrides the merits of the law. So it is on the table, just as anything your opponent values is on the table in a negotiation. As far as the country’s welfare, can’t you get that the Reps believe they are acting in a way that best serves it? Come on… ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/106 "2013-10-09T20:08:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Only if they capitulate. The republicans put themselves in this position. They wanted this, they planned for it, they are right where they wanted to be. For them to be making demands of the Democrats so they can save face, or the country gets it, is the height of irresponsibility. Especially when they can’t even say what that _something_ is that they want! If they wanted to save face, they should have listened to their fellow republicans who were telling them that this would never work and were strongly advising against it. They ignored this advice, put themselves in peril, and now want someone else to bail them out. Are Republicans ever responsible for their own predicaments? Would the Republicans help the Democrats save face if the positions were reversed? Be honest now. The truth is that the Republicans put themselves into this shitty position against almost everyone’s advice. They put themselves in harms way, so its time that they do the right thing and take their medicine. Or they can refuse to admit that they fucked up and take the entire global economy and the reputation of the United states down in flames with them over pride and spite. But somehow this is all Obama’s fault, and he should just give the crying babies what they want? Why would they ever stop crying if he did that? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/107 "2013-10-09T20:09:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The law is not as popular as you think. Oh dear, are you reading **adaher** ’s unskewed polls? Or do you have some actual factual basis to support that? > [@](#): > > And the Reps are working within the system. Only by the letter, not the spirit. Do you see any sort of responsibility to the nation in play there? Where? > [@](#): > > Tell me, if you were a congressman and a law was being instituted that you strongly thought was bad for the country, would you just keep your mouth shut and go along because, “Well, the law was passed!” Think about some of the laws you don’t like and didn’t like in history. If you really don’t know how that’s done _legitimately_ in a constitutional democracy, better go ask your Civics teacher for a refund. > [@](#): > > So, if it’s so much unicorns and rainbows as the proponents believe, why not allow one more additional year delay to one part and calmly and confidently prove the detractors wrong.? What would we know a year later that we don’t know now? You know the answer, and it has to do with November 2014. Come on now. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/108 "2013-10-09T20:12:40Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Would the Republicans help the Democrats save face if the positions were reversed? Be honest now. No, they would not - because they are bastards for whom politics are more important than the financial health of the country. Amiright? Do you agree? So - are Democrats bastards for whom politics are more important than the financial health of the country? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/109 "2013-10-09T20:15:07Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Typically, at least IMHO, a negotiation should involve two parties coming to the table with a list of demands and a list of concessions they are willing to make. A good negotiator is one that maximizes the demands fulfilled while minimizing the concessions. A problem with current “negotiation” and what makes it look like extortion (to me), is that the Republicans don’t really have any concessions. What concessions are the Democrats offering? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/110 "2013-10-09T20:17:24Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > This is ridiculously untrue. It was not passed over “100% opposition” and the Republicans got 161 amendments included in the final bill. > > [Urgent Care Center & Walk in Clinic in Waltham MA |AFC Doctors Express Urgent Care Waltham](http://www.americasfairhealthcare.org/blog/entry/fact-check-how-the-health-care-law-was-made/) Please. There was not even time to read the final bill, never mind debate it. Let’s not forget Pelosi’s mind-numbingly stopid and irresponsible statement, “We need to pass it to see what’s in it.” [Not one Rep voted for its passage.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act) > [@](#): > > On December 23, the Senate voted 60–39 to end debate on the bill: a cloture vote to end the filibuster by opponents. The bill then passed by a vote of 60–39 on December 24, 2009, with all Democrats and two independents voting for, and all Republicans voting against (except for Jim Bunning, who did not vote).[101] > [@](#): > > The House passed the Senate bill with a 219–212 vote on March 21, 2010, with 34 Democrats and all 178 Republicans voting against it. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/111 "2013-10-09T20:17:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, they would not - because they are bastards for whom politics are more important than the financial health of the country. Amiright? Do you agree? > > So - are Democrats bastards for whom politics are more important than the financial health of the country? The republicans are holding the financial health of the country hostage right now unless they get their way (which they can’t even currently define mind you, aside from not being disrespected, whatever that means). They are offering zero concessions and only making demands. Demands that they can’t even articulate or at least agree on. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of who the players are here and what each side is doing. Its almost as if you’ve reversed the roles in your mind. Maybe you should go freshen up on the facts before you keep debating based on erroneous premises. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/112 "2013-10-09T20:19:01Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > The republicans are holding the financial health of the country hostage right now unless they get their way And democrats are holding the financial health of the country hostage right now unless they get their way. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/113 "2013-10-09T20:20:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I probably wouldn’t have started this. But once it has started, Republicans either have to win _something_ or be finished politically. So I approve them holding out now. This is the worst idea in the history of bad ideas. First: if the only reason they have for winning is to maintain relevancy, THEY HAVE NO RELEVANCY. A party whose existence falls to such depths deserves to lose. But second: you’re wrong. They won’t be finished politically, of course; that’s “sky is falling” bullshit. Sure, the Tea Party’s influence will be finished politically, and sure, Boehner’s career might take a nosedive. But if the moderates take over the Republican party and start negotiating like grownups (or hell, like my third graders with their Pokemon cards), then the Republican’s prognosis can only improve: voters will become less disgusted both with them and with congress as a whole, as people start sitting down and acting like grownups and finding ways to work together. The only thing that will be finished politically is this dangerously childish petulant puppy-killing-extortionism of a political stratagem. If you disapprove of their starting this, heed the old Turkish proverb: No matter how far you’ve gone down the wrong path, turn back. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/114 "2013-10-09T20:20:38Z")
[Here’s a quick list of the main items Obama has already given away over the years.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sean-mcelwee/republicans-shutdown_b_4059222.html?utm_hp_ref=politics) > [@](#): > > Obama has lost Waxman-Markey (climate change), Manchin-Toomey (gun control and the Gang of Eight (Immigration). Dodd-Frank (finance reform) has been dismantled and hasn’t even begun to correct the damage wrecked by Gramm-Leach-Bliley (which repealed Glass-Steagall) and the Commodities Modernization Act (deregulating derivatives). > > Remember that his health care reform was supposed to include a public option, universal Medicaid expansion and exclude the Cadillac tax. Obamacare itself is a Republican idea, remember? It’s painful to think of where we could be today if he’d grown a spine earlier in his administration, instead of pretending the Republicans were still adults. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/115 "2013-10-09T20:20:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And the Reps are working within the system. So if this is the new normal, what should Republicans do if the Senate left in all their Obamacare amendments (whatever the latest ones are), and added new amendments of their own: a federal assault weapons ban, a path to citizenship for 11 million illegal immigrants and repeal of the Bush tax cuts. What would Republicans do then? They got what they wanted, but do they have to eat what Democrats are serving to open the government again? Why is extortion only an acceptable practice when used to further conservative ideals? Can Democrats hijack the budget and debt ceiling and blame the House for not passing them? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/116 "2013-10-09T20:21:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What concessions are the Democrats offering? No more concessions than the Republicans are offering, which is exactly zero. Except the Republicans are the ones holding the metaphorical gun to the financial health of the US, and the entire world. Do you really think there is equivalence here? Do you think police should negotiate with hostage takers? Do you think that the US should negotiate when terrorists threaten us? You have to know that offering concessions to a hostage taker is a sure way to guarantee future hostage situations right? Is that what we want? Government by constant hostage situations? How many well-functioning democracies do things that way? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/117 "2013-10-09T20:21:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You know the answer, and it has to do with November 2014. Come on now. Yes, there are elections. And you and the other proponents of the law are correct, you’d be eager to have this be top of their mind when they vote. So if you truly believe this is a good idea, you should want it delayed a year so you can bitch slap the Rep candidates across the country and wind up with all three branches. So, why not. What are you afraid of? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/118 "2013-10-09T20:21:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And democrats are holding the financial health of the country hostage right now unless they get their way. It really is on the rubber-glue level for you guys, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/119 "2013-10-09T20:22:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > For the Nth time, Republicans are not demanding, currently, that Obamacare “goes away”. “Currently” That’s kind of an important word. The CR only would last until December. What happens then? The R’s are looking for delays and concessions to approve a CR that lasts a few weeks, then they have to pass another one. Will there be more delays, more concessions in December? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/120 "2013-10-09T20:25:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Please. There was not even time to read the final bill, never mind debate it. Endless repetition does not make a falsehood true. _As you fucking well know_ :dubious:, the bill was in debate for a year and a half (arguably since 1912 for that matter), it was available for download by anyone who gave a shit, and it was even shorter than Sarah Palin’s "auto"biography. Now cut the shit, please. > [@](#): > > Let’s not forget Pelosi’s mind-numbingly stopid and irresponsible statement, “We need to pass it to see what’s in it.” That was directed only at people who weren’t interested in finding out the non-Fox truth, but will have to be shown, as is now happening despite their hysterical fear. IOW the willfully ignorant. Know anybody like that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768.md?page=7)