# what do the Republicans have to negotiate with? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768 "2013-10-09T13:47:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/121 "2013-10-09T20:25:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There is a risk in that, yes. But this is what happens when one party forces through a piece of legislation against 100% of the opposing party. Not only do they feel no authorship, but it was forced down their throats. Poor Republicans, they feel no authorship. Well too bad because the bill was passed at a time that the Democrats has the electoral authority to do it without Republican support. Maybe if the Republicans had not destroyed the economy so badly in 08 they would have been able to stop it. Other democratic countries like Canada regularily have legislation passed with not a single opposing member voting for it. If it is so important that at least one member of the opposing party supports every bill why is this not written into the constitution. If a bill passes it passes - end of story. The message for Republicans: get the electoral authority to repeal Obamacare and then do it. > [@magellan01](#): > > And do you really think the Dems would consider the changes the Reps want if they’re not pulled to the negotiating table by their ears? The way the bill was passed strongly suggests “no”. Yes, if the Republicans actually brought something to the table. Like say - we Republicans will remove some of the Bush Tax cuts in exchange for delaying the individual mandate. A tit for tat, like any real negotiation. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/122 "2013-10-09T20:27:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And democrats are holding the financial health of the country hostage right now unless they get their way. Bullshit. I don’t believe for a second that you actually think this is equivalent. So in your mind, in a hostage situation, the police hostage negotiator is equally to blame for keeping the hostages hostage? Because he wants his way too? (where his way is that the hostages get to go home safe and noone dies). Do you also see the same equivalence here? That if the hostage negotiator only would give in to the hostage taker and let him go, then everyone would be ok, so the police negotiator is also equally causing the situation? Is that how you really see this? If so, its pretty twisted to think that way. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/123 "2013-10-09T20:29:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What concessions are the Democrats offering? What \*\*Elvis1ives \*\*noted, and I should say that the offer to negotiate after the gun is not pointed at their heads is a good offer. It is like advising the Republicans to stop stalling and prevent the ship from running into the rocks. [http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/cracks-emerge-in-gop-s-hostage-strategy](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/cracks-emerge-in-gop-s-hostage-strategy) > [@](#): > > The GOP is splintering over its strategy to force conservative reforms by sustaining the government shutdown and threatening default. > > Republican leaders don’t know what they want, other than for Democrats to accede to some sort of policy concessions in order to avert the crises. And they’re divided on which of the two must-pass bills is the better one to hold hostage. > > … > > Even as his party scales back its Obamacare demands – from defunding it to delaying it to dismantling nonessential parts of it – Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) on Wednesday bashed the law over problems with the insurance marketplaces that opened for enrollment last week. “What a train wreck,” he declared on the House floor. “This is why we need to sit down and have a conversation about the big challenges that face our country.” > > Markets are reacting negatively to the specter of breaching the Oct. 17 debt ceiling deadline. Wall Street is pressuring Congress to act. Many polls show Republicans shouldering most of the blame for the shutdown, which is now in its ninth day. Even conservative groups that pushed for a shutdown confrontation are saying the borrowing limit should be raised. They want Republicans continue the Obamacare fight on the funding bill, a strategy that runs contrary to GOP leaders who see the debt ceiling as the better venue to push their demands. > > Senate Democrats have steadfastly held to their demand that Congress act to reopen the government and avert default before bipartisan budget negotiations. > > “When a ship is headed toward rocks, the reasonable thing to do is steer away – and then work on charting a better course,” said Senate Budget Chair Patty Murray (D-WA) on the floor Wednesday afternoon. “When a government is shut down and is headed toward a default that economists say would be catastrophic, the reasonable thing to do is end the crisis, steer away from the next one, and then work together on a long-term plan to avoid these crises in the future.” > > For the 21st time, she called for House-Senate budget negotiations, which would occur after the government re-opens at status quo levels. For the 21st time, Republicans blocked the request, signaling that they’re not ready to let go of the hostages yet. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/124 "2013-10-09T20:30:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > For the Nth time, Republicans are not demanding, currently, that Obamacare “goes away”. I’ll bet you $50 that I can find Republicans who are still demanding that Obamacare goes away. Will you take my bet? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/125 "2013-10-09T20:30:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So if you truly believe this is a good idea, you should want it delayed a year so you can bitch slap the Rep candidates across the country and wind up with all three branches. Wrong reasoning, unsurprisingly. Its popularity will only be cemented if your side’s constant lying and obstruction and vandalism attempts can be overcome by the actual experience of the people who can now be helped by it - the ones who are signing up _by the millions_, and don’t feel kindly toward the people trying to stop them. > [@](#): > > So, why not. What are you afraid of? That the real human pain of our current system will continue unnecessarily and uselessly for another year, at the end of which you’ll \*still \*play the same fucking stupid game, won’t you? What the Republicans are afraid of is pretty damn obvious, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/126 "2013-10-09T20:31:46Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So if this is the new normal, what should Republicans do if the Senate left in all their Obamacare amendments (whatever the latest ones are), and added new amendments of their own: a federal assault weapons ban, a path to citizenship for 11 million illegal immigrants and repeal of the Bush tax cuts. > > What would Republicans do then? They got what they wanted, but do they have to eat what Democrats are serving to open the government again? Why is extortion only an acceptable practice when used to further conservative ideals? Can Democrats hijack the budget and debt ceiling and blame the House for not passing them? They are free to do whatever they’d like. But once you start putting in more stuff you start to lose some votes of your own party. What we have here is pretty clean. They’re agreeing to fund the whole government and are just asking for a year’s delay on the individual mandate. Obama has changed the law himself (probably unconstitutionally), so the the notion that the Reps are asking him to sacrifice his first born are ridiculous. He created this problem the same way he did with Syria, by opening his big yap and uttering “red line” and “I will not negotiate”. If he hadn’t done that, Syria wouldn’t have been as big a problem for him and he probably would have sat down to negotiate by now. But the fact that he talked tough on Syria and became a laughing stock has forced him to dig his heels in all the more now. Time for him to actually man up and do the right thing and negotiate. I’ll even send him a tin badge that says “Official Tough Guy”, if it will help. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/127 "2013-10-09T20:33:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > They are free to do whatever they’d like. But once you start putting in more stuff you start to lose some votes of your own party. I’ll take that risk. Suppose it passes the Senate; will Boehner put it up for a vote in the House? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/128 "2013-10-09T20:41:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Wrong reasoning, unsurprisingly. Its popularity will only be cemented if your side’s constant lying and obstruction and vandalism attempts can be overcome by the actual experience of the people who can now be helped by it - the ones who are signing up _by the millions_, and don’t feel kindly toward the people trying to stop them. Ahem. If all these millions have such a positive experience with it, then you’d sweep the country! Face it, you don’t know how well it will go. You just think it should and want it to. But you’'re not willing to wait and see how it works in the real world. And keep in mind, the law as passed was—in fact—flawed. Obama has even changed it himself. The cost estimates by the CBO have almost doubled. So, I fully understand why you’d be afraid to delay anything. Reality might get in the way of your utopian dream. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What the Republicans are afraid of is pretty damn obvious, isn’t it? No. They’re happy to wait and see how it does. Right now we have a law in constant flux with only guesses as to how much it will help or hurt the country. Funny that you’re so confident about the positive effects of the law yet so reluctant to let the law in practice determine if it’s good or bad and in what ways. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/129 "2013-10-09T20:41:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But second: you’re wrong. They won’t be finished politically, of course; that’s “sky is falling” bullshit. Sure, the Tea Party’s influence will be finished politically, and sure, Boehner’s career might take a nosedive. But if the moderates take over the Republican party and start negotiating like grownups (or hell, like my third graders with their Pokemon cards), then the Republican’s prognosis can only improve Only if those who “take over” have no connection to voting for the shutdown or against the upcoming debt limit increase and then capitulating like Democrats’ little bitches. Meaning you want all the current Republican congressmen to commit political suicide. Guess what - they really don’t wanna. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/130 "2013-10-09T20:42:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’ll bet you $50 that I can find Republicans who are still demanding that Obamacare goes away. Will you take my bet? How is that relevant? I can point to the bills they passed to prevent the shutdown of the government. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/131 "2013-10-09T20:44:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Meaning you want all the current Republican congressmen to commit political suicide. Guess what - they really don’t wanna. Then it will just look like suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/132 "2013-10-09T20:45:27Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Bullshit. I don’t believe for a second that you actually think this is equivalent. You’re wrong. > [@](#): > > So in your mind, in a hostage situation, the police hostage negotiator is equally to blame for keeping the hostages hostage? I reject your premise (that is, equating yourself to police and Republicans to criminals). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/133 "2013-10-09T20:46:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yes, there are elections. And you and the other proponents of the law are correct, you’d be eager to have this be top of their mind when they vote. So if you truly believe this is a good idea, you should want it delayed a year so you can bitch slap the Rep candidates across the country and wind up with all three branches. > > So, why not. What are you afraid of? To quote someone else, this isn’t a damn game. What I’m afraid of is twofold: 1. that our country will be taken over by, in Terr’s words (roughly paraphrased), the puppy-killing extortionists in the Tea Party; and 2. that removing the individual mandate will cause important, if flawed, HC reform to unravel. There are real consequences, not just seats to gain or lose in the House. It’s ridiculous to compare the individual mandate to the corporate requirements, by the way. They are not remotely equivalent, even if they sound like they are. The pro-shutdown Republicans are the masters of false equivalences. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/134 "2013-10-09T20:46:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And democrats are holding the financial health of the country hostage right now unless they get their way. You know this, but the difference is, the GOP is asking for something. The Dems are not. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/135 "2013-10-09T20:47:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You know this, but the difference is, the GOP is asking for something. The Dems are not. The “Dems” are asking for a clean CR. And not getting it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/136 "2013-10-09T20:47:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I’ll take that risk. Suppose it passes the Senate; will Boehner put it up for a vote in the House? I don’t know. One problem is that it would be hard to hold anyone accountable. There are too many items in the bill you suggest to understand what people are voting for or against. And THAT is extremely unhelpful in a democracy. At the very least we should know what our representatives believe and their level of conviction. That is not a problem with the bills the house sent to the Senate. It’s a simple and small concession to delay one aspect of Obamacare for one year. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/137 "2013-10-09T20:47:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What concessions are the Democrats offering? They’ve offered a continuing resolution without attaching a minimum wage increase, a public health care option, student loan reform,… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/138 "2013-10-09T20:48:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Only if those who “take over” have no connection to voting for the shutdown or against the upcoming debt limit increase and then capitulating like Democrats’ little bitches. > > Meaning you want all the current Republican congressmen to commit political suicide. Guess what - they really don’t wanna. More insane bullshit. If they capitulate ON THIS FUCKING HORRIBLE TACTIC, but stand their ground ON THEIR PRINCIPLES, then they’ll just be back to square one, which is negotiating like a decent human being instead of like a puppy-killing extortionist. The only thing they’ll “capitulate” on like little bitches (love the misogyny–you’re really terrified that they’ll grow boobies, aren’t you?) is the ability to extort concessions by holding a gun to the puppy. And they should lose that. They’ll still be able to gain concessions by offering concessions of their own, like any decent human being would do. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/139 "2013-10-09T20:49:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The “Dems” are asking for a clean CR. And not getting it. Exactly–they’re asking for a CLEAN, by which you mean “none of their conditions attached,” CR. In other words, they’re asking for NOTHING except for congress to do its job. If doing their job is an exclusively Democratic aim, then Republicans SHOULD lose all power forever. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768/140 "2013-10-09T20:50:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Obama’s legacy is a fact. He will have one—fact! He wants it to be a good one, like any President does. It’s more on his mind than anyone else’s. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard the pundits talk about his not negotiating because it’s hie “signature legislation”. That seems like fairly good ground for suggesting that Obama’s legacy is more on the mind of, at least, those pundits, than his. Yours too. Apparently now mine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-the-republicans-have-to-negotiate-with/670768.md?page=8)