# What do we do when Iran drops the big one on... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485 "2012-07-07T00:42:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/41 "2012-07-07T05:44:48Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > In either case, nuking Americans is just suicide for high-level Iranian government officials. Are they really that stupid? Only in right wing fantasy land. in the real world, no, they aren’t going to do anything like that. > [@GreasyJack](#): > > American soldiers seemed to do a reasonably good job separating the regimes from the population in their minds during the post-war occupation of Japan and Germany. After a long campaign of slaughtering Japanese whenever possible, even when ordered not to. That’s much of how the Japanese got their reputation for not surrendering; the ones that were taken alive were generally murdered by the American troops anyway. As for the occupation, I not that one consequence of the occupation of Japan was a [rape epidemic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan#Rape) by American soldiers. > [@GreasyJack](#): > > Actually occupying Iraq was a snap, it was maintaining the occupation where things became troublesome. Iran is somewhat more capable of repelling an invasion, but still couldn’t actually keep US forces out of their country. They undoubtedly could resist the actual occupation as much or more than Iraq did, but a long-term occupation wouldn’t be necessary. Just invade, remove whoever is deemed responsible for the attack, forcibly dismantle the military and WMD production capability and leave. You know, kind of like the war Bush and co. were supposedly selling us in Iraq, instead of the grandiose scheme they actually had in mind. First, my point _was_ that they are equipped and organized to resist an occupation, not keep us out - they know they couldn’t. And a quick occupation wouldn’t work, they’d just rebuild. They’d _have_ to; you can’t dismantle their military, leave and expect them not to rebuild it just to survive. And killing the leaders wouldn’t do anything; they’d be replaced by leaders that hated us just as much, and who would have much more public support for their hostility after we rampaged through the cities murdering, raping, torturing and destroying. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/42 "2012-07-07T05:49:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Only in right wing fantasy land. in the real world, no, they aren’t going to do anything like that. > . I respect your pacifism, I’m a liberal myself. However, nukes would fly toward Iran like flies on shit, were they to drop one on the US. The simple fact is that our government is _obligated_ to ensure within hours that Iran has absolutely no chance of mounting another nuclear attack. We should kick them out of office if they weren’t willing to do it. A nuclear response is quite simply required. It’s the only way to ensure that another attack cannot happen. You don’t quite get this, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/43 "2012-07-07T05:55:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And? At no point did I say that the leadership of Iran were nice people. And I doubt that they _would_ have done “far, far worse” to Iraq; about the only thing worse that they _could_ have done than what we did would have been an outright genocide campaign of Iraq. They would have gone far out of their way and invested immense resources in being as evil as possible to match us. Again, you’re showing very dramatic ignorance over either the situation in Iraq, what Iran would have done had their war against Hussein been more successful, what genocide entails, or a combination of the three. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/44 "2012-07-07T05:57:29Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > **What the Iranian people seem not to comprehend** , though, is that you can’t replace one medieval theocracy with another and expect things to change.. What makes you think they don’t comprehend that? In the middle east Iran has historically been one of the most liberal country, one of the most western-friendly, one of the most modernized and its population is amongst the most educated. If they could get rid of their mullahs, they’d probably become in quick order the most liberal, stable and economically dynamic country in the region. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/45 "2012-07-07T05:59:22Z")
> [@Mekhazzio](#): > > Responding to a nuclear attack with anything short of another nuclear attack undermines the entire concept of deterrence. Does not. The concept of deterrence is not “an eye for an eye,” it’s that you have the ability and willingness to impose consequences severe enough to deter a regime from performing whatever act. In the case of a major super-power with a similarly gigantic nuclear arsenal, yes only a full-fledged nuclear response before they are able to neutralize your capability will provide that deterrent. But for a country that we can easily subdue with conventional means and impose whatever penalties we deem appropriate, there is absolutely no need for us to respond in kind. I mean, seriously, can anyone point to an example where “retaliation” would be a legitimate reason for committing a crime against humanity? Do we let populations that have been victims of genocide commit retaliatory genocides in the name of genocide deterrence? A retaliatory nuclear attack against a civilian population without at least a fig-leaf of military necessity would be just as much of a war crime as the initial unprovoked attack. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/46 "2012-07-07T06:17:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > First, my point _was_ that they are equipped and organized to resist an occupation, not keep us out - they know they couldn’t. And a quick occupation wouldn’t work, they’d just rebuild. They’d _have_ to; you can’t dismantle their military, leave and expect them not to rebuild it just to survive. And killing the leaders wouldn’t do anything; they’d be replaced by leaders that hated us just as much, and who would have much more public support for their hostility after we rampaged through the cities murdering, raping, torturing and destroying. I would expect the leaders who led the country on the path to a criminally-insane war and committed the greatest atrocity in modern history would probably experience a decline in popular support. Unless the hypothetical also involves the transformation of the Iranian people from one of the more moderate middle-eastern populations into some sort of evil hive-people, that is. And it’s not as if nuking them is going to make them especially friendly either. Unless you’re seriously talking about annihilating an entire nation of people in response to a single attack? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/47 "2012-07-07T06:18:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It would be horribly difficult to occupy them. . By current standards, that would be an isssue. Western countries in general (not only the USA) aren’t particularly interested in being involved in a long, bloody, old-style war. But after a nuclear attack, the paradigm would change completely. We would be in a WWII-like situation. Neither the people nor the government would have an issue with significant losses amonst servicemen after having seen several millions of other citizens (including relatives and friends of many of them) being vaporized or dying from burns and radiation poisoning. Regardless how many boots on the ground would be required, they would be there. Police would have to beat up the the crowds of volunteers gathering around enlistement offices. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/48 "2012-07-07T06:24:30Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > The idea that an Iranian nuclear attack on US (or Israeli) soil would end in anything other than complete occupation of Iran by the US and it’s allies is idiocy. Implying that the current White House would do nothing is perhaps worse. > > We have a rather large contingent of political leaders that think we should invade Iran _now_, when we aren’t even 100% sure they’re attempting _make_ a bomb, much less use one. “If you strike a king you must kill him.” A relatively minor power could not plausibly nuke the USA with any possibility of victory, or even its régime’s survival–unless it smuggled very high-powered weapons into (at least) New York and D.C., and effectively blew up the whole power structure of the USA before the Yanks knew what was going on; and even then if the nukes were traceable the US Navy would probably try to avenge the USA. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/49 "2012-07-07T06:31:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I wasn’t defending the American invasion of Iraq. > > Beyond that, I think the OP showed a rather dramatic overestimation of Iran’s capabilities by suggesting that if they got a bomb they could launch one at New York. Not “launch one” necessarily; just get it there somehow. In the hold of a freighter, for instance. A nuclear weapon ain’t all that large. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/50 "2012-07-07T06:34:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. We weren’t trying to help anyone, we conquered them and tried to turn them into a Republican free market fantasy while stealing their oil and randomly murdering & torturing the populace. And there _were_ hundred of massacres; many much larger. The _entire war_ was just an exercise in mass murder. Conquered? Then why aren’t we turning Baghdad into Disney World in the desert, confiscating all the oil, and carrying off all the women? Could it be that conquer them is not what we actually did? Hundreds of massacres? Did this happen anywhere except inside your head? Mass murder? What masses were murdered? Forgive me for saying so, but you come off as some kind of nut. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/51 "2012-07-07T06:45:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Only in right wing fantasy land. in the real world, no, they aren’t going to do anything like that. > > After a long campaign of slaughtering Japanese whenever possible, even when ordered not to. That’s much of how the Japanese got their reputation for not surrendering; the ones that were taken alive were generally murdered by the American troops anyway. As for the occupation, I not that one consequence of the occupation of Japan was a [rape epidemic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan#Rape) by American soldiers. > > after we rampaged through the cities murdering, raping, torturing and destroying. Ooh, Wikipedia. If it’s in Wikipedia, it must be true:rolleyes: You obviously have a real hard-on for America and Americans. I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned the Venusian War, where American troops invaded the planet and wiped out the inhabitants. Or the fact that we shot in cold blood 94 million of Japan’s 71 million people. Or that we raped and killed every man, woman, child, goat, and sheep in Afghanistan, and posted the videos on YouTube. I’m unfamiliar with you and your ravings, but I am beginning to see a theme in your work. Your disconnect with reality, I must say, is rather intriguing in a disgusting sort of way. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/52 "2012-07-07T06:51:55Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > What makes you think they don’t comprehend that? In the middle east Iran has historically been one of the most liberal country, one of the most western-friendly, one of the most modernized and its population is amongst the most educated. If they could get rid of their mullahs, they’d probably become in quick order the most liberal, stable and economically dynamic country in the region. Because during the aborted revolt wherein so many of them died, they planned to replace one gang of autocratic religious leaders with another. Which would have been a tragic waste of the lives that were lost. Pluralistic democracy is simply not in the psyche of the vast majority of Middle Eastern countries–the Iranians, for example, have never known it, educated and sophisticated as they are. The most they can grasp in terms of governmental reform, then, is replacing the old boss and hoping the new boss isn’t the same as the old boss. I also don’t think a heavily Muslim country could possibly become a democracy. Islam micromanages daily life and does not tolerate dissent. Its values are antithetical to democracy. Nevertheless, the Iranian people seem to want an Islamic theocracy–which would seem to indicate that they don’t want democracy. ---
**Author:** ![littlespeedysuperbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@littlespeedysuperbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/littlespeedysuperbike)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/53 "2012-07-07T06:56:15Z")
Turkey is majority-Muslim, democratically elects their leaders and the losers walk, and is a NATO member. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/54 "2012-07-07T07:05:37Z")
greenslime1951, your caricature of Iran’s political culture is not terribly convincing. They do have elections there, really. In point of fact, they had a secular democracy for a few years mid-century, which was overthrown by the USA and UK for imperialist reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/55 "2012-07-07T07:20:58Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I respect your pacifism, I’m a liberal myself. However, nukes would fly toward Iran like flies on shit, were they to drop one on the US. The simple fact is that our government is _obligated_ to ensure within hours that Iran has absolutely no chance of mounting another nuclear attack. We should kick them out of office if they weren’t willing to do it. > > A nuclear response is quite simply required. It’s the only way to ensure that another attack cannot happen. > > You don’t quite get this, do you? No, you are responding to something I didn’t say. I said that it was a right wing fantasy that Iran would nuke America, not that America would retaliate with nukes for such an attack. > [@GreasyJack](#): > > I would expect the leaders who led the country on the path to a criminally-insane war and committed the greatest atrocity in modern history would probably experience a decline in popular support. Unless the hypothetical also involves the transformation of the Iranian people from one of the more moderate middle-eastern populations into some sort of evil hive-people, that is.? A decade or two of systematic brutalization, slaughter and destruction by American occupiers would do that quite effectively. > [@greenslime1951](#): > > Conquered? Then why aren’t we turning Baghdad into Disney World in the desert, confiscating all the oil, and carrying off all the women? Because they declined to roll over and play dead like we expected. We tried to reshape Iraq into a libertarian fantasy land, and tried to steal the oil & oil money; it just didn’t work. > [@greenslime1951](#): > > Mass murder? What masses were murdered? The people who were slaughtered in our war of conquest and our occupation. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/56 "2012-07-07T07:27:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A decade or two of systematic brutalization, slaughter and destruction by American occupiers would do that quite effectively. So, to summarize, a lengthy occupation will be necessary because of the animosity the Iranian people will feel towards us as a result of our lengthy occupation? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/57 "2012-07-07T07:33:41Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > So, to summarize, a lengthy occupation will be necessary because of the animosity the Iranian people will feel towards us as a result of our lengthy occupation? No, a lengthy - in fact indefinite - occupation will be required to keep them from rebuilding themselves back to where they were. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/58 "2012-07-07T07:55:25Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > greenslime1951, your caricature of Iran’s political culture is not terribly convincing. They do have elections there, really. In point of fact, they had a secular democracy for a few years mid-century, which was overthrown by the USA and UK for imperialist reasons. There was also a previous attempt at installing a democratic system at the beginning of the 20th century but the Russians and British would have none of it (they had agreed on how power should be shared between them in Iran). As for them supporting wanting one gang rather than another, it’s not like they had much choice in the matter. All candidates had been preselected by the mullahs. They protested in favor of the “less worst”. And regarding Muslims not having any inclination towards democracy, quite a lot of them died during the two last years trying to oust tyrans (including in Iran). Which is much more than any citizen of a western country can boast about. And amongst them, regardless of your beliefs, were many people who had ideals as progressist as your own. ETA : This is in response to **greenslime1951** , not **foolsguinea** ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/59 "2012-07-07T07:58:17Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > c) an uninhabited Canadian island, because their delivery system screws up somehow. Yes. Somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485/60 "2012-07-07T07:58:54Z")
Well, since Jerusalem is the second or third most holy cities in Islam, I doubt the \*\*Islamic \*\*Republic of Iran would nuke it. If they nuke Tel Aviv, Israel would ‘parking lot’ every city in Iran, probably even if the Americans told them not to. To do otherwise would render its nuclear deterent useless. I would not be surprised if they struck other middle-eastern cities as well, to make themselves _relatively_ less vulnerable. If they nuke New York, then I would expect global condemnation, even from other Shariah-law nations. I think counter-force nuclear strikes on military bases and nuclear facilities would be hard to avoid, as the American people would be baying for blood. A conventional invasion would be launched to oversee regime change and forced-total _laicite_. If they nuked an uninhabited Canadian island… Well, I’d expect an American immediate and unrestrained invasion of Iran. No nuclear weapons but carpet bombing urban positions and shelling mosques insurgents shelter in wouldn’t seem too harsh. If they nuked Washington? I don’t know… Celebrate?😛 \*\*\*Now here’s a new scenario. \*\*\* What would happen if the Iranians obliterated Riyadh? Now, [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-do-when-iran-drops-the-big-one-on/627485.md?page=4)