The PC speech in Brazil is trying to get Afro-Descendent coined for blacks.
Most people dont care here and call them Preto (Black) or Negro (Negro). We might call them in a bad way Crioullo (Nigger I suppose best translation).
Overall we find the idea of calling blacks as Afro-Americans is amusing and demonstrates that they arent considered full Americans since no one calls WASPS Euro-Americans.
Which is an interesting twist, Rashak since in Latin American countries of Spanish and French (as opposed tyo Portuguese) cultural background, “criollo/créole” is socially “higher” in category, as it refers to the descendants of Europeans.
In Puerto Rico, the term is “negro” (pron. <NEH-gro’> which means simply the proper word for “black” in Spanish – and that is the term that is insisted on by activists in the community and by those of us who grow weary of doublespeak (BTW “negro/a” is also a term of endearment in PR slang). “Prieto” in PR is slang for black or dark brown (e.g. “café prieto”, black coffee). Many people do seem to be uncomfortable with affirming that there are those of us who are black, though, maybe by association with the (US)American usage of “black”, maybe because it violates our basic “cultural myth” that we are a seamless racial blend.
The historic euphemisms here are “moreno” and “trigueño”, and they are still used but they are recognized as euphemisms. In any case, they refer originally to someone who is “dark” in the Mediterranean sense, as opposed to in the Sub-Saharan sense (“moreno” meaning someone with moorish traits, “trigueño” someone with tanned skin like golden wheat[trigo]) so they could be used for a whole range of people. “De Color” [literally, “colored”] was used a lot when I was younger but seems to have died off.
Hmm, what about my newly discovered South African relatives, who emigrated from various Jewish communities in Latvia and Lithuania to South Africa around the turn of the century, and have now been there for several generations (those who haven’t left for the U.S., UK, Israel, Argentina, the Netherlands, Malaysia, and/or Australia, that is)? They speak, with varying degrees of proficiency, English, Afrikaans, Yiddish, Hebrew, and various African languages. Are they Jewish? Baltic? African? American? Asian?
And what about the ones who left Lithuania for Mexico, have now been there for multiple generations, and are Mexican citizens who speak Spanish as their native language?
I’m beginning to understand the old Soviet anti-semitic euphemism “rootless cosmopolitan.”
Eva Luna. You’re mixing ethnic groups, nationalities and regional identifications. All could be true. Language facility is mostly irrelevant to ethnicity and nationality is largely immaterial to religion. Unless they’ve converted, they’re all Jews. Sort individual family members by nationality, interracial heritage, skin tone and if you must, religion. Mazol tov.
Ah, my post was meant more as a rhetorical question. This thread is really turning into a GD.
Actually, in some circumstances language facility isn’t at all irrelevant to ethnicity. The Soviet census in some years determined ethnicity based on the stated native language of the person surveyed, but that topic could easily be a book.
Eva Luna. I did say “mostly irrelevant”. I thought your post probably was rhetorical, based on the tone, but I’ve had conversations with other people who weren’t. Wasn’t trying to be argumentative, or to kill this thread, although I do have that knack. Meant to type, “Oh, just call them family.”
The Irish word for a black person, oddly, is “duine gorm”, which literally means “blue person”.
The true Berbers are considered to be caucacian. Which you can see clearly because they have a fair skin, sometimes very light eyes (mostly blue but also green) and sometimes very light hair upto blond.
By the way: to me Americans are Americans.
I find it extremely rude that in America people seem to focus so much on race that it is filled in on forms of all kind.
I for one would refuse to fill in such a form because I would see such stupid questions to be an intrusion of my privacy.
But Americans seem to be very used to it to get categorized according to skin colour. I don’t know why people don’t find it rude and an intrusion of their privacy.
So how do you call an Arab with a Belgian very caucacian white mother? A White Arab or and Arab White?
What should I fill in on such a form if I was American and willing to contribute to this strange obsession with racial profiling?
Salaam. A
Hibernicus,
Maybe this stemms from people who are since centuries called “the blue men” of the Sahara.
The Touaregs are known for their blue clothing and veils (the men wear veils too). The paint which gives the tissues a fabulous beautiful indigoblue is made of natural substances. Probably now they also use synthetic substances but the natural gives on to the skin and gives it a certain deep colour one can’t exactly describe.
Salaam. A
Presumably the reason why there are spaces on forms for people to identify their ethnicity is because there are so many claims/accusations that people of certain categories are ignored or underrepresented in public life. The only way to test such claims is to monitor the public, so personally I only object to being asked questions of that kind if there is no opportunity to omit them.
Aldebaran, paradoxically (or ironically, depending on how you look at it) one of the reasons that American census and other forms ask for racial ID is in order to verify that the population IS receiving the necessary services without racial discrimination, because in the past they didn’t.
IOW, 50 years ago forms did not have a box for “race”… because the authorities just looked at you and if they saw you were black, or your name was José Jiménez, that was it, you would not get the service/transaction you applied for. Nowadays employers/landlords/schools/agencies find it in their interest to have proof that they indeed serve applicants of every ethnic group, so they ask you if you would not mind identifying yourself.
BTW, that box for “race” is strictly voluntary – you can fill anything you want or nothing at all. In fact for some transactions it’s against the law to even ask you for it until AFTER you get your application approved.
Askia:
Many African Americans and many many African Americans whose family came to North America via the Caribbean, came to the West as free people, not slaves. I have never heard that slave ancestry was criteria for being called “African American.”
I agree that AA should be used to describe culture, ethnicity but not racial appearance. In some parts of the world - when it is important to describe someone who appears to have sub-Sarahan color and/or features - the term “Negro” is still used and is not a loaded term. I am not suggesting there be a movement to bring this back to the US, but just to say it isn’t necessarily a put-down everywhere.
And since when is someone from Egypt not African? Where are you getting this stuff, Askia??
There were a lot of Jamaican students at my college, including my roommate my freshman year. They all hated being called African-American. Sadly, there were plenty of white Americans who were unable to make the distinction. They might realize that Keisha was from the Caribbean and not the Carolinas, but didn’t understand that there are huge cultural differences between dark-skinned people from different parts of the world. But as my roommate used to say, “We’re all black, but they are African-Americans and we are Jamaicans.”
People who are actually from Africa tend to dislike being called African-American as well. They’re usually not too happy about just “African” either. Africa is a large continent that contains many countries and many more ethnic groups. A Masai woman is going to identify as a Masai, and maybe as a Kenyan too, but probably not as a plain ol’ African.
Canadians would call them “black”. But most Canadians I know would NOT refer to the skin colour at all unless it seemed relevant to something else in the story. I never here people say “I’ve got to tell you about my black friend Martha.” It’s just Martha. Unless the person is very old or pretty far from the city.
Many Canadians do not distinguish Africans from Caribbeans.
Dr. Paprika - That’s sounds most sensible. As a physical description, I see nothing wrong with “black,” but only if it’s relavent to the story. To describe a particular culture, African-American is more appropriate. So far, nobody seems to have been offended by the way I use these words.
Incidentally, cops in Chicago use the word “Canadian” as police slang for blacks. Take that as you will.
Funny that, I sent in my first ever question to Cecil about 2 weeks ago and now you’ve all gone and answered it for me (well, discussed it, either way there goes my glory). Some mind reading going on somewhere along the line I’m thinking. Anyways, if I may ask someone to clarify (since I’m not American and a little on the naive side) that the term “African-American” should be used for a certain cultural group, not every American with dark skin who has roots somewhere in Africa (although there seems to be some disagreement between you lot what that certain culture is)?
Some other things I was wondering about, ignore them if you wish:
Why does the general view seem to be that the different racial origins in the USA need to be pointed out (African-American, Asian-American, Native-American or whatever)? And:
Why is the Caucasian population free from a label (When I say label i mean one that implies them to be less American than others, I’m sure there was someone else in this thread that pointed this out, but i can’t find him at the minute).
I guess what i really want to know is, why are there labels at all? Aren’t you all Americans?
I think all Americans should be called American, all Africans, African and so on.
Black is not a good term. There are shades of brown from dark to light, rarely true black I am pink, my Mom is olive. We are considered white. Why? No white person is actually white. I have looked for white makeup because I am so light. Duh. No one makes it. American Indians are not red. Many look more like my Mom. Most of the time, I can’t tell the difference. Are Chinese people actually yellow? What difference is it what color a person is? And we are all equals and no one of any color should be set apart for anything. I certainly don’t care what color a person is and I am not responsibe for any past relative who had a predjudice against anyone. I am responsible for me.
Bookwoods. Yup. You’re hearing it from me: African slave ancestry in America is a primary criteria to be called African American. And I never said Egyptians weren’t Africans.
Lamia. I’ve met a few Pan-Africanists who call themselves African as a point of national/continental pride from a political viewpoint, but what you describe is the more prevailing ethnic attitude.
Dr_Paprika. Toronto seems blessedly free of the underlying racial tensions that exist in America, which is probably why my brother will probably end up living there after he graduates from the University.
pulykamell. “Black” is the simplest, most basic description. It’s the equal and opposite of “White”.
zibb. Welcome to the SDMB. To answer your first question, immigration in this country still exists in terms of settling in here rather than blending in here. The “American Melting Pot” may provide a commonality we can all share, and a change the surface, but not the core. Nationwide, there exists whole communities of immigrants and their families – some naturalized, some not – who have set up thriving communities where they can speak, live, work, marry, pray, shop, learn and socialize in areas where everyone is from similar backgrounds and everyone is like them. There is a pride and comfort in heritage that everyone clings to, some more than others. Think on the old Irish, Polish, Hungarian, Jewish, black and Chinese neighborhoods in New York City and other cities. Add to that the newer Cuban, Vietnamese, Mexican, West Indian, Ethiopian and Somalian enclaves here now. Toss in a hyphenated “-American” after that.
As for all the social labels, European scholars – and by extension, their societies – have an obsession with naming and categorizing things, whether intangible and concrete, scientific and mystical. It’s fascinating cultural behavior. Think of all the imaginative name-calling white racists do. “Junglebunny” is inspired invective. I can’t think of any other culture that does that to the depths and extent Europeans do.
PurplePerson. I agree, but as long as light-skinned people from milky to olive complexions persist in calling themselves “white”, we will see darker-skinned people from albino to burnt umber call themselves “black”. Black may not be a good term to you, but it is for many more.
Since you offered your opinion, I’ll offer mine: the notion that a person owes absolutely no one for the prejudices of their ancestors strikes me as being a little short-sighted.
I’m interested in learning more about what you mean by this. Can you give me examples of European social labelling (do you mean that US society is an extension of European society?), and explain how this classification relates to “creative” racist name-calling?
I’m American…guess my skin color?