# What do you guys think about Iran? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613 "2003-06-13T16:40:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/21 "2003-06-16T11:31:20Z")
I’m sorry, his copy of “How to win friends and influence people” got burned in a house-fire. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/22 "2003-06-16T11:32:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wake up call \* > \*\*Excuse me Collunsbury. There is such a thing as the fall of the Great Empires. Yours and Tamerline Empires on this board are going to fall because this new “blatherer” just arrived on the scene. Your shop is going to be closed soon for the following reasons: > > 1- I have taken the pain of reading everything you and Tamerline have posted to-date on SDMB. Oh boy, Collunsburry, you must have broken the record in this Message Board for the number of viewers and participants. So did Mohamad, Jesus, Moses, and Buddah (not on the Internet). And we all know what game those egocentric fuckers were up to. Look at the world today. Do you really want people to bow down and pray to the intelligence of Collunsburry and Tamweline as if they were the Jesus, Mohamad, and Buddha of today? > > […] > > Frankly, I think Collunsbury basically agrees with my point of view, but he does not want to bring himself down to the level of this “blatherer” lest him lose his position on this board as the “Supreme Leader”. \*\* IANA Mod; however, it might be worth having another look at the rules of the Great Debates forum re: the use of profanity and _ad hominem_ attacks before someone who _is_ a Mod has words with you. Feel free to start a “Why Colonsberry and Lamertane [sic] suck weasels” thread in the BBQ Pit, but let’s stick to the issues here. I would agree that any overt moves from the outside (especially the US) to either support the reformers or oppose the conservatives in Iran will likely backfire. A more subtle approach, possibly combined with more foreign media coverage, has a better chance of moving the Iranian government more towards the center. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/23 "2003-06-16T12:35:41Z")
Ahem. I frankly found this hard to parse, but let’s take a crack at it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wake up call \* > Excuse me Collunsbury. There is such a thing as the fall of the Great Empires. Yours and Tamerline Empires on this board are going to fall because this new “blatherer” just arrived on the scene. I’m afraid our dear Tamerlane is the only person with an empire. I am a mere dreary Capitalist Exploiter, or so I have been led to understand. [qoute] 1- I have taken the pain of reading everything you and Tamerline have posted to-date on SDMB. Oh boy, Collunsburry, you must have broken the record in this Message Board for the number of viewers and participants. So did Mohamad, Jesus, Moses, and Buddah (not on the Internet). And we all know what game those egocentric fuckers were up to. Look at the world today. Do you really want people to bow down and pray to the intelligence of Collunsburry and Tamweline as if they were the Jesus, Mohamad, and Buddha of today? [/quote] Well, now that you ask, yes I do. I like incense quite a bit, preferably sandalwood although frankincence will do in a pinch. I further very much like garlands, red ones are best but something in a kind of orange appeals to my buddhist sensibilities. I’d like it five times a day please, to get a Muslim angle on it too. > [@](#): > > 3- I spent 9 years of my educational life in England all the way to the Masters degree there. One thing I learnt about the English was that they can go on for hours talking about a subject. But at the end of the day, it was a lot of words with little substance. And so it is with you, Collunsbury and Tamerline. You baffle your audience with a lot of words, dazzling them into thinking that you know what you are talking about. Oddly neither he nor I are English, and I am afraid you are not precisely making a good case for an English education. Good try though. > [@](#): > > 4- Let’s take Collunsbury’s statements of today: > > **That is the traditional view that held for a thousand years until Khomieni adopted the new radical thinkers, largely not of the traditional clerical establishment, views on an Islamic state.** > > What the fuck are you talking about? About the traditional views of the Shiite clerical establishment vis-a-vis the state. Advisory rather than direct ruling role has been the traditional view of the proper relationship, and one which still goodly numbers of the shiite ulema adhere to. > [@](#): > > \*\* … and being older [can] recall of course the old Shah system, which in many ways was arguably more repressive than the Islamic Revolutionary state political areas. \*\* > > … and what the fuck that means? The older baraaris, that is the established traditional commercial class can recall the evils of the Shah’s regime. Not so very hard, eh? > [@](#): > > Frankly, I think Collunsbury basically agrees with my point of view, but he does not want to bring himself down to the level of this “blatherer” lest him lose his position on this board as the “Supreme Leader”. No, I don’t agree with your point of view, such as it is. Blatherer however was an unfortunate usage and I do apologize for that. It’s inelegant as well. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/24 "2003-06-16T12:58:23Z")
**Collounsbury** doesn’t have an empire? Then why do you post surrounded by lictors bearing _fasces_ and soldiers holding SPQC[sup]_[/sup] banners? [sup]_[/sup]_Senatus Populusque Collounsburiensis_ ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/25 "2003-06-16T13:01:19Z")
Ha! **Collounsbury** can’t even code properly! I sense a weakness in the Empire - advance my barbarian hordes! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/26 "2003-06-16T13:09:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Ha! **Collounsbury** can’t even code properly! I sense a weakness in the Empire - advance my barbarian hordes! \*\* Yes, I betray a dismaying tendency to hastiness in posting. Extrapolating, it is clear that it will be easy to seperate me from the legions and crush me. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/27 "2003-06-16T13:10:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > IANA Mod; however, it might be worth having another look at the rules of the Great Debates forum re: the use of profanity and _ad hominem_ attacks before someone who _is_ a Mod has words with you. Feel free to start a “Why Colonsberry and Lamertane [sic] suck weasels” thread in the BBQ Pit, but let’s stick to the issues here. I should say I don’t think Tamerlane or I were in fact being insulted, although I suppose one could parse it that way. In any case, I found the hyperbolic delivery endearing. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/28 "2003-06-16T13:12:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*Yes, I betray a dismaying tendency to hastiness in posting. Extrapolating, it is clear that it will be easy to seperate me from the legions and crush me. \*\* Eh, just your western half. Given strong civil insitutions, brisk international trade, a quick solution to the Iconoclasm question, and a buffer state between you and the Muslim hordes, your eastern half can go on for another thousand years before falling. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/29 "2003-06-16T13:38:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Eh, just your western half. Given strong civil insitutions, brisk international trade, a quick solution to the Iconoclasm question, and a buffer state between you and the Muslim hordes, your eastern half can go on for another thousand years before falling. \*\* True, very true. Never have liked those smelly barbarians in the West, fur wearing creeps that they are. And the Bospurus is so nice in the spring, although there is that nasty Scylla monstre creeping about, bloody mythological exortionist. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/30 "2003-06-16T13:41:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Eh, just your western half. Given strong civil insitutions, brisk international trade, a quick solution to the Iconoclasm question, and a buffer state between you and the Muslim hordes, your eastern half can go on for another thousand years before falling. \*\* I don’t know that **Tamerlane** would appreciate you referring to his empire as “hordes.” Hopefully after my true hordes crush the west, the two empires will clash on some subject, weaken each other and be ripe for the picking. Just gotta get **Coll** and **Tamerlane** to disagree on something. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/31 "2003-06-16T13:50:44Z")
So, **Justin Tamerlake** , why did you and Britney break up? ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/32 "2003-06-16T14:36:59Z")
I’m just wondering if this is an IMHO sort of thread or a GD sort of thread? I’m too tired and annoyed at the world now to compile my post only to have it shat upon (see, didn’t curse! “Shat” isn’t really a word, therefore, not an expletive either!). Seriously, though, folks, my cousins are in the thick of it and I am worried for their safety. I only hope that this whole scenario doesn’t wind up with the same horrible mess that the last revolution did. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/33 "2003-06-16T14:49:19Z")
Anahita, you’re right, apologies for the silly hijack, this is a serious situation. However, if it helps, I am moderately hopeful that the situation will not get out of control, although right now tensions are high which I am not sure if this helps or hurts. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/34 "2003-06-16T14:59:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anahita \* > \*\*I’m just wondering if this is an IMHO sort of thread or a GD sort of thread? > > I’m too tired and annoyed at the world now to compile my post only to have it shat upon (see, didn’t curse! “Shat” isn’t really a word, therefore, not an expletive either!). > > Seriously, though, folks, my cousins are in the thick of it and I am worried for their safety. I only hope that this whole scenario doesn’t wind up with the same horrible mess that the last revolution did.\*\* We wouldn’t shat upon your post. We were just shatting upon some of the hyperbolic and crazy aspects of **Wake Up Call’s** post. I hope everyone here does recognize the true gravity of the situation, and I think that it won’t turn out bad unless the Bush Administration starts meddling. ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/35 "2003-06-16T15:09:24Z")
Ok, since I have a huge list of things I HAVE to do today, I’m going to summarise my views on this. First of all: Reza Pahlavi, the Shah’s son— in LA, has been trying to influence expatriate Iranians into supporting him as the next “King” of Iran. Most of the LA Iranians would’ve arrived in LA immediately after or during the revolution. Many would’ve been supporters of the Shah themselves, and left the country with a lot of money. He’s the best candidate the US has to send in as a leader, as he is a known entity. Now, I can’t cite all these now, but will be back later to do so. The following is my own particular opinion, but the facts behind it will be supported later. Over 50% of the population in Iran is under the age of 20. They have no recollection of the revolution, or the Shah’s tyrrany. What they do know, however, is that during the Shah’s reign, their parents would’ve been allowed greater freedom (to wear what htey wish, drink, attend mixed gender parties, etc) and that all seems very attractive to them now. Those people are now the largest majority in Iran. The intellectuals for the most part, were either exiled or tortured into silence by the Savak (the Shah’s ‘secret’ police) before or during the revolution. Unfortunately, the power vaccum that existed after the Shah was deposed was filled by the religious fundamentalists, who believe it or not, do NOT have as much popular support as some in this thread believe. So, we have a situation where, the US has said it is backing a democratic government in Iran, and they’ve just the right man for the job. Good ole Reza! See, the people in Iran can now romanticise about how wonderful life was in the time of the Shah because compared to the horrific economic and political situation in Iran at present, it seems better. In fact, as far as silencing public dissent and being against opposing views, you can’t get much more severe than the Shah. Remember, he was put in power by the US and the actions of the Savak (admittedly, via the CIA) were supported by the US. So, most of my relatives, both in the US and in Iran fervently oppose any rule by Reza Pahlavi, while also being completely fed up with the out-dated mullahs and their own corruption. They’re between a rock and hard place. My guess is that again, there will be a brain drain in Iran and any remaining intellectuals, poets, philosophers and artists will either flee (and are doing so now) now, or in the case of a revolution against the muslim clerics. There is not a strong inclination for people to do anything that could later come back to hurt them, so the fact that 100+ people signed their names to a document expressing their opinions of the government is a good sign. I only hope that they aren’t going to have to face recriminations if/when the protesting is halted. The only thing that frightens me is that a large number of my own cousins are at the university and would be quite active in the revolution. On a personal level, most of my relatives have either US, Canadian or other Western dual citizenship, so they can leave. ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/36 "2003-06-16T15:23:37Z")
Ok, here’s some cites, sorry the last post was so incoherent, I’ve got a bazillion things to do. Cite: Reza Pahlavi is keen to get the ‘throne’ of Iran. [http://www.rezapahlavi.org/](http://www.rezapahlavi.org/) Excellent Farsi and English newsource [http://payvand.com/news/](http://payvand.com/news/) Population cite: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2535127.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2535127.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/37 "2003-06-16T15:41:11Z")
Forgot to add, thank you. The US Congress will vote on giving the 50Million USD ($50,000,000) to “to promote democracy in Iran and to fund Iranian opposition groups. According to the Financial Times, a big chunk of the money would go to “royalist television and radio stations” in Los Angeles. The amendment will be voted on this coming week.”\* -[http://www.congress.org/congressorg/webreturn/?url=/niacouncil/issues/alert/?alertid=2182501](http://www.congress.org/congressorg/webreturn/?url=/niacouncil/issues/alert/?alertid=2182501) Isn’t it so interesting that no one knew that, not even me. Just puts it into perspective when you hear people who are incredulous that the US is actively pursuing its own agenda in Iran. Democracy in action!! ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/38 "2003-06-16T16:58:05Z")
Don’t really want to debate in this thread right now, but as a reference for at least the motivations and beliefs of the protesters, I would recommend this site: [http://www.iran-daneshjoo.org](http://www.iran-daneshjoo.org) (in addition to those **Anahita** linked). ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/39 "2003-06-17T06:14:15Z")
CIA involvement "According to our sources, a CIA undercover unit has entered Iran through Zabul, in the Sistan Baluchistan province. Its assignment is to stir up dissent among the largest population in the area, the Baluchi tribes. " “The US administration has been running close-up surveillance of the Iran scene in search of incidents and data useful for destabilizing the Islamic Republican government. A group of 50 ex-Iranians living in California were selected by the Interviewing Service of American, Inc. to run day-long telephone campaigns to private citizens and companies in Iran, in order to solicit real-time information on current events in the Islamic republic.” -[http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=153](http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=153) Now, I’m not claiming that DEBKAfile is a wonderful source, in fact, I’m not certain what their agenda is, but I found this article interesting, considering it was written in September 2002. Also a very interesting article on the situation in Iran, dated May 2003. [http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=493](http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=493) ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613/40 "2003-06-17T06:18:48Z")
[http://www.iranexpert.com/2003/farsiwebsites14june.htm](http://www.iranexpert.com/2003/farsiwebsites14june.htm) Now, the kitty is up to 100,000million USD, apparently. Or this might be a different kitty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-guys-think-about-iran/181613.md?page=3)