# What do you think about Derren Brown's "The guilt trip"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 5, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955 "2011-11-05T14:15:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dragwyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dragwyr/32/2855_2.png) [@Dragwyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragwyr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/21 "2011-11-09T14:53:16Z")
I was not able to view the video (I live in the US). Speaking as a magician, I can say that some of the most amazing illusions that a magician can perform are also some of the most basic tricks we perform. Just because they are basic, doesn’t mean they are any less effective. Regarding Derren Brown, in some cases he is using complete strangers (Lay people) while in other situations he is definitely using pre-arranged actors (shills). He’s a magician and his job is to make it look like he is doing real magic, so his use of shills and basic tricks is to be expected. Magicians do this all the time. What makes Derren Brown good is how he frames and presents these illusions. He gives the explanation of using NLP as part of the presentation in order to make his audience think in a certain way such that his presentation is stronger. With regard to the OP, whether or not Derren is using a shill or not is irrelevant. What he is trying to do is make his audience think about the issue of how people are manipulated by the world around them. In doing that, he was a success. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/22 "2011-11-09T15:11:33Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Actual, documented experiments like Milgram have been carried out and shown that behaviour can be manipulated quite easily in the right settings. I don’t know a great deal about hypnosis, however I have been put into a mild trance state and can verify that what happens is real, it’s not make believe. The Milgram Experiment is probably the worst “See what people will do!” example there is. These were college kids shocking an unseen partner in the middle of the respected college campus in the country as part of a real research study. Why would any of them believe it was real and they were delivering real “fatal” shocks to someone they couldn’t see? Don’t even get me started on the Stanford Prison Experiment. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/23 "2011-11-09T15:48:05Z")
> [@Dragwyr](#): > > Regarding Derren Brown, in some cases he is using complete strangers (Lay people) while in other situations he is definitely using pre-arranged actors (shills). ‘Definitely’ is a strong word to use. Do you have any evidence to back this up? I only ask because I am in a very good position to know how DB achieves the great majority of his results and I would say this is an inaccurate statement. > [@](#): > > He’s a magician and his job is to make it look like he is doing real magic, so his use of shills and basic tricks is to be expected. The second phrase does not follow from the first. Many magicians try to convey the entertaining illusion of ‘real magic’, whatever that is. Very few rely on ‘shills’ because it is usually impractical, seldom necessary, never the best method and frowned on within the profession. So no, it is not to be ‘expected’, because it happens very rarely indeed. > [@](#): > > Magicians do this all the time. No, they don’t. A very small number of magicians, in a very small number of cases, resort to this method. The vast majority of magicians, in the vast majority of cases, never do, never need to and would never want to. > [@](#): > > He gives the explanation of using NLP as part of the presentation in order to make his audience think in a certain way It is clear that the meme ‘Derren Brown explains what he does in terms of NLP’ will never die, even though it isn’t true, never has been true and has been factually refuted countless times, including in Derren’s own book and here on the Straight Dope. It’s just one of those ideas that cannot be dislodged, no matter what. For the nth time, and just because this is the Dope, Derren Brown has hardly ever mentioned NLP and has never claimed that anything he does can be achieved using NLP techniques. Please refer to my previous answer in this thread for slightly more detail. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/24 "2011-11-09T16:31:02Z")
Since this appears to be about a tv program, I’m moving it to Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/25 "2011-11-10T10:28:41Z")
It’s odd to critise a magician for lying and being deceptive. It seems to be basic misunderstanding of what magicians actually do which is entertain us by lying to us and being deceptive. ---
**Author:** ![Charley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/97f17d/32.png) [@Charley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charley)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/26 "2011-11-10T10:55:08Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > The Milgram Experiment is probably the worst “See what people will do!” example there is. These were college kids shocking an unseen partner in the middle of the respected college campus in the country as part of a real research study. Except variations of this experiment have been done with other (including non academic) groups and the results are statistically the same. This includes one version where a puppy was given actual shocks, and participants still complied with instructions. Milgram’s experiment is open to criticism on a number of levels, true, but implying that the participants were just playing along because of the context doesn’t seem supported by the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/27 "2011-11-10T13:12:07Z")
> [@glaeken](#): > > It’s odd to critise a magician for lying and being deceptive. It seems to be basic misunderstanding of what magicians actually do which is entertain us by lying to us and being deceptive. This is true to some extent, but context is relevant. Consider a live theatre magic show. If a magician performs a routine that uses a stooge (plant / actor / confederate… whatever term you want to use) then so be it. He may deceive you, but he hasn’t lied to you. However, if he first of all states that he does not use stooges, and _then_ uses a stooge, then he has lied to you. He has crossed an ethical line in a way that no-one finds acceptable, least of all professional magicians. We condemn it and the very, very few magicians who rely on this kind of approach. Consider a magic show on TV. If a magician does something that relies on camera tricks, he may deceive you but he has not lied to you. If he first of all issues a disclaimer, saying he does not use camera tricks, and _then_ uses camera tricks, then he has lied to you. Again, this is ethically unacceptable among all professional magicians, and we heartily despise and condemn the few magicians who rely on this approach. Among professional magicians, the view is that we take pride in trying to entertain and deceive you (the audience) fairly. It is our intention to deceive, hopefully in an entertaining way that delights you with the apparent presentation of an impossible event. It it not our intention to lie to you, at least not in a way that significantly alters the context of our transaction. This may seem to some to be a rather fine and intangible distinction, but I can assure you within the profession it is taken very seriously. The few magicians who lie to their audiences are despised and enjoy very low status within the community because we don’t think they are playing the game fairly or deploying any performing skill or talent. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/28 "2011-11-10T13:34:27Z")
> [@Dragwyr](#): > > What makes Derren Brown good is how he frames and presents these illusions. Speaking as someone who enjoys a good magic show, I have to say that ultimately this is what matters the most. The best magic shows are really a form of theatre. For example, compare: [Derren Brown’s “Undertaker”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U0OsSNYb0E). [Another (yawn) card trick](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCWxSDeGR1I). Technically, it’s the same trick, but Derren’s version almost sent chills down my spine when I first saw it because he manages to use the trick to tell a story and work people’s emotions. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/29 "2011-11-10T13:51:47Z")
> [@Charley](#): > > Except variations of this experiment have been done with other (including non academic) groups and the results are statistically the same. This includes one version where a puppy was given actual shocks, and participants still complied with instructions. Milgram’s experiment is open to criticism on a number of levels, true, but implying that the participants were just playing along because of the context doesn’t seem supported by the evidence. Do you have any links that I could at? I’d really like to read about these studies. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/30 "2011-11-10T14:04:44Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > It is clear that the meme ‘Derren Brown explains what he does in terms of NLP’ will never die, even though it isn’t true, never has been true and has been factually refuted countless times, including in Derren’s own book and here on the Straight Dope. It’s just one of those ideas that cannot be dislodged, no matter what. Maybe he doesn’t claim to use something he calls “NLP”. But he does claim to use methods that are sometimes collected under the diffuse umbrella called NLP. The objection is not really whether he calls it NLP or not, the annoying thing is that he claims it is some sort skill you can learn, where in fact it is just a trick. For instance: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys0FP\_7DbKo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys0FP_7DbKo) I also suspect him of using things that are observable to the one who he performs the trick on, but not to the viewer, which also seems unfair. ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/31 "2011-11-10T14:18:23Z")
I am fairly sure I have seen a magician who claimed to perform their tricks using telekinesis that they had developed after studying secret writings from the mystical east. It’s just a magicians patter and Derran Browns patter is just a variation of the same types of thing. ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/32 "2011-11-10T14:29:54Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > This is true to some extent, but context is relevant. > > Consider a live theatre magic show. If a magician performs a routine that uses a stooge (plant / actor / confederate… whatever term you want to use) then so be it. He may deceive you, but he hasn’t lied to you. > > However, if he first of all states that he does not use stooges, and _then_ uses a stooge, then he has lied to you. He has crossed an ethical line in a way that no-one finds acceptable, least of all professional magicians. We condemn it and the very, very few magicians who rely on this kind of approach. > > Consider a magic show on TV. If a magician does something that relies on camera tricks, he may deceive you but he has not lied to you. If he first of all issues a disclaimer, saying he does not use camera tricks, and _then_ uses camera tricks, then he has lied to you. Again, this is ethically unacceptable among all professional magicians, and we heartily despise and condemn the few magicians who rely on this approach. > > Among professional magicians, the view is that we take pride in trying to entertain and deceive you (the audience) fairly. It is our intention to deceive, hopefully in an entertaining way that delights you with the apparent presentation of an impossible event. It it not our intention to lie to you, at least not in a way that significantly alters the context of our transaction. > > This may seem to some to be a rather fine and intangible distinction, but I can assure you within the profession it is taken very seriously. The few magicians who lie to their audiences are despised and enjoy very low status within the community because we don’t think they are playing the game fairly or deploying any performing skill or talent. I can see where you are coming from I was really just saying the nature of the thing itself is lying and deception. Plenty of magicians claim to be using real magic which of course we all know is not true and of course the illusion is a deception to support the lie that magic is being performed. Saying it’s lying of course makes it probably sound more malicious than I intended but it’s a lie the audience is complicit with. We are all in on the lie and we want to be deceived. It’s the nature of the act to me. ---
**Author:** ![Charley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/97f17d/32.png) [@Charley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charley)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/33 "2011-11-10T16:16:04Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Do you have any links that I could at? I’d really like to read about these studies. Sure, it’s one of the most cited pieces of research in social pschology, so there are heaps of references, although ethically of course there are problems with direct repetition. [This](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1559-1816.1999.tb00134.x/abstract) is a meta-review of the various versions of this experiment over the last few decades. (Actually, it seems you need to register to view the whole paper there, but Blass has written a whole lot of Milgram-related stuff which is available [here](http://www.stanleymilgram.com/blass/related-publications.php)). Given what you were saying (and at some level I don’t disagree that there may have been some perceived safety for the participants given the circumstances, although I’m not as suspcious of the research as you seem to be) [this one](http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0000039#s2vvvv) may be of interest: they repeated the experiment using virtual ‘learners’ and even though the participants knew that their subject wasn’t real, they showed stress psychological responses to administering the shocks. One thing to note is that one of the interesting things about this experiment is not just that the participants carried on delivering the ‘shocks’ but that they did so despite demonstrating clear distress in doing so. If they did not believe it was real because of the context, as you suggest, why were they so distressed at what they were doing? Again, you seem to have to register/pay to read the whole article, but you can see Milgram’s own abstract [here](http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/abn/67/4/371/). Sorry for the hijack, and can I just say **ianzin** that I’m always interested and glad to see your contributions to threads on these topics. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/34 "2011-11-10T19:50:43Z")
Wait…so some viewers actually believe a room full of people stealthily carried someone from his second-story room, down the stairs, outside and to the lawn without awakening him? Why did they even need all those people? Only a few actually carried him. Beyond that, here’s why I clearly think it’s fake: the entire setup is too much a risk of being blown. If at any point the guy fails to be drawn in, the show is off and they’ve just wasted thousands of dollars on the setup. And that’s not even the lawsuit risk, unless he somehow signed away his rights to sue before, in which case he would very likely realize this was just an elaborate stage show–notice we never saw him talk to his wife once things started really getting weird? I wonder if there’s a reason for that… And why didn’t we actually see the ride to the police station? Or him entering it? These scenes likely would have been among some of the most interesting and compelling they could have shown. May I remind you this is from the same guy who claims to have hypnotized someone via a video game then made them reawaken during a zombie apocalypse. At best, it’s a heavily manipulated version of Candid Camera, at worst it’s bad theater. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/35 "2011-11-11T07:27:30Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > Wait…so some viewers actually believe a room full of people stealthily carried someone from his second-story room, down the stairs, outside and to the lawn without awakening him? It’s not my intention or my place to defend this particular show, which I didn’t think was all that interesting or enjoyable. However, if you are going to criticise, I think it’s a good idea to at least be fair to the show and comment on the actual content rather than what you _think_ happened. The contention was not that people could pick up someone who was asleep, carry him outside and leave him on the lawn without him waking up. The contention was that someone who was known - via an earlier selection process - to be highly suggestible and an excellent subject for hypnosis, when given a recorded ‘trigger’ message delivered via the TV in the room, could allow himself to be carried outside. We were also given to understand that he was aware of what was happening but stayed in a relaxed, sleep-like state, and that the hypnotic suggestion or conditioning (the precise details were not given in the show) meant that afterwards he would not remember how he got there. I don’t say this version isn’t open to question and doubt. It is, and I could probably find more holes in it than most. However, it has at least the veneer of plausibility, and it’s not the same as simply saying they carried him outside and hoped he wouldn’t wake up. > [@](#): > > Why did they even need all those people? Only a few actually carried him. There was no suggestion that the non-carriers were ‘needed’ for any reason at all. They all took part purely to convey a sense of rite or ritual that looked striking and dramatic on TV. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/36 "2011-11-11T21:02:21Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > There was no suggestion that the non-carriers were ‘needed’ for any reason at all. They all took part purely to convey a sense of rite or ritual that looked striking and dramatic on TV. Right. The whole thing is tailor made for TV. There is, at a bare minimum, manipulation going on that we’re not seeing. What if he had waken up while being take outside? Would they have cancelled the show? ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/37 "2011-11-11T23:58:27Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > What if he had waken up while being take outside? Would they have cancelled the show? I think part of the reason they were all carrying him like that was so that should he wake up he’d still think he was dreaming. At the front of the procession was the Doctor with his head bloddied and carrying the mallet. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/38 "2011-11-13T18:50:16Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > It’s admirably humble of you to announce your failure. > > Here in the UK DB is a major star. He has had his own TV specials on air for over ten years. Some of his TV shows have broken new ground, some have been brilliant and some have been highly controversial. He does live theatre shows the length and breadth of the country that have always been excellent and that always sell out. This body of work, and this achievement, is part of why people are still fascinated by him. I hope this helps. > > This assertion is meaningless unless you state which ‘stuff’ you are referring to. During his eleven years in the public eye DB has demonstrated a very wide range of material, routines and stunts. > > Also, what do you mean by ‘fake’? In one of his shows he replicated the famous Milgram experiment, showing that authority figures can cause people to make cruel decisions they wouldn’t otherwise make. What’s ‘fake’ about that? > > In another, he demonstrated that it’s possible to play a set of chess grandmasters and never do worse than win half the games or at least draw. This was based on the principle that each player was, in effect, playing one of the others, not playing Derren. There is nothing ‘fake’ about this, and anyone can see it works when you understand the principle. > > In yet another of his TV specials, he showed that it was possible to create the illusion of having a failsafe formula for picking winners at the racetrack, again based on an old scam that anyone can see would work and does work in real life. > > What’s ‘fake’ about any of this ‘stuff’? > > There is so much wrong with this assertion that it’s hard to know where to begin. > > (1) What Derren admits, accurately and honestly, is that his work combines “magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship”. This is not equivalent to saying that what he does is ‘fake’. > > (2) DB has seldom, if ever, claimed that he achieves his results using NLP, although he has on a few occasions referred to a technique called ‘anchoring’ that was around long before NLP and is referred to in some NLP literature. To say he uses ‘NLP explanations all the time’ is simply incorrect. He makes very, very few references to it. > > (3) It is unclear from your sentence whether you think DB achieves his results via NLP and is a fraud for not admitting it, or whether you believe he does claim to use NLP and is a fraud because this is not how he really achieves the results he achieves. In either case, you are incorrect. It is not the case that he achieves the results he does using NLP (there is no link whatsoever) and he has seldom if ever even referred to NLP in any of his work. > > I’d be interested to see if you can back this up with any citation. DB does some things that aren’t dangerous, and he doesn’t claim they are. He does some other things that are dangerous, and they really are, although to some extent the degree of ‘danger’ is highly subjective. A lot of people think speaking in public is frightening, whereas other people do it all the time with ease. > > This statement is incorrect. A great many magicians are puzzled and baffled by some of the things that DB has done, both on TV and in his stage shows, and his methods are the subject of a great deal of chatter and speculation in the magic world. He’s a magician who uses psychological techniques as part of his patter, constantly pointing out ways he subliminally manipulated people into choosing things. Why would I accept his claims at face value? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I know he has a big following. But I also know that he’s admitted he doesn’t use NLP, which, if true, means anything he does that uses those techniques must be false. Seeing as this trick, like most of the others, rely on various NLP techniques, it is quite clear they are fake. I don’t know why you have trouble understanding this logic. Either he is not doing what he claims, or he is using NLP, which makes him a liar outside of his tricks and calls into question everything else he says (if he’d not already crossed that line. See below). And there’s the simple fact that he’s a proven liar. By default, anything he says should not be trusted. He’s claimed to never use camera tricks, and then you see him do an obvious camera trick to predict lottery numbers. He claims to not use actors, and yet [actors have been found](http://aboutderrenbrown.blogspot.com/2008/07/revealed-derren-brown-used-actress-in_24.html) on his shows that are preceded by that disclaimer. He’s thus crossed that line mentioned upthread about lying outside of the trick. Plus there’s the simple fact that stuff like programming people to commit robberies or manipulating one’s sense of guilt is so psychologically unethical that, were he actually doing it, he would have lawsuits out the wazzoo for the trauma he causes. And if he was somehow doing them ethically, he’d have to let in a lot of psychologists in on it–which would contradict the reason he claims he doesn’t use actors. It is much simpler to believe that, like all mentalists, he is merely claiming to use psychological phenomena while secretly doing magic tricks. And while maybe not all his magic tricks are on YouTube, but all the ones that I’ve found have people explaining exactly how they could work. The only debates I’ve seen is whether he actually does it a certain way or not, but that’s different from saying you can’t figure out a way to do his tricks. If YouTubers can figure it out, then real magicians should not be far behind. I don’t mind him having a following if people realize he is just tricking people. I like magicians as much as the next guy. I do have a problem when people like in this thread actually discuss this stuff as if it’s real manipulation, especially on a supposed skeptics forum that is dedicated to fighting ignorance. Like the chess game, where he pretended to be predicting people’s moves ahead of time when he was doing a trick that is intentionally outlawed in chess tournaments (you always play as the same color when playing multiple opponents), or the time he pretended that he was using subliminal messaging to make artists concept artists draw what he’s already drawn, to claiming he manipulated someone into putting a bullet in the first chamber of a gun, to claiming he’d used covert hypnosis (the very definition of NLP) to make someone want a bike–all of it is fake manipulation while hiding behind a rather simple trick. It’s silly to believe otherwise. And, anyways, once you bring hypnosis in, there’s really nothing you can’t do psychologically. You don’t even need actors–just hypnotize them ahead of time and leave them in a post hypnotic state. Even if, despite all the above, Brown isn’t using some simple trick in this experiment, there’s nothing psychologically interesting about anything he does in any of these shows. And, no, repeating the Milgram experiment to give yourself cred doesn’t count. Using something real to trick you into believing something fake is almost literally the oldest trick in the book. With all of this, it literally baffles me why he has such a big following, and why people freak out when someone points out his fakery–especially in the highly skeptical UK. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/39 "2011-11-14T00:27:36Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > But I also know that he’s admitted he doesn’t use NLP, which, if true, means anything he does that uses those techniques must be false. Seeing as this trick, like most of the others, rely on various NLP techniques, it is quite clear they are fake. I don’t know why you have trouble understanding this logic. Having read this sentence several times, I conclude that I am unable to communicate successfully with **Big T**. But at least I tried. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955/40 "2011-11-14T01:50:30Z")
I haven’t seen the show, but from the description, it sounds kind of what someone with schizo-affective tendencies has to live with on a daily basis. It’s a very painful experience to have a reality that one is constantly suspect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-derren-browns-the-guilt-trip/601955.md?page=3)