# What do you think about the Pern books? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 24, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048 "2013-08-24T11:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/81 "2013-08-27T20:42:52Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Ok, this is frustrating me (and I’m defending this series more than I like it. 😉 ) so…here are the opening words of the prologue to _Dragonflight_, the very first Pern book published Here’s the Internet Speculative Database for the first edition of the book [Publication: Dragonflight](http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?11122), which notes that “An in-universe introduction is on pages ix-x” ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/82 "2013-08-27T22:43:58Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Here’s the Internet Speculative Database for the first edition of the book > [Publication: Dragonflight](http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?11122), which notes that > > “An in-universe introduction is on pages ix-x” And here is a link to a Google books excerpt from Analog, 1967, showing part of the introduction quoted by Fenris above [Analog Science Fiction/science Fact - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=IuYsAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Rukbat%22&dq=%22Rukbat%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uyodUr-zA8rOsATkpoEI&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBg) ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/83 "2013-08-28T00:06:51Z")
All the “fantasy or science-fiction” debate is kind of moot, since the most fantasy-like elements of Pern are in the first book and are minimized thereafter By the second book in the series, the principal characters found some remnants of the original settlers, and soon after that, they are excavating the landing site. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/84 "2013-08-28T00:48:14Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > . . . This is clearly science fiction. If you skipped over this page and started with Lessa waking up on the floor of the scullery, yeah, I can see how you might think it’s fantasy-like, but if you read the 1 page intro\* above, it can’t mistaken for anything other than a lost-colony story. . . . It’s like taking a big permanent marker and scrawling “Science Fiction” on a fantasy novel. It’s an affirmative declaration, making use of certain commonplace terms, but it just isn’t convincing. > [@bmoak](#): > > All the “fantasy or science-fiction” debate is kind of moot, since the most fantasy-like elements of Pern are in the first book and are minimized thereafter . . . True. And, really, it doesn’t matter a hang. I’m mostly reacting against McCaffrey’s (mere et fils) strident insistence. A much stronger case could be made for Jack Vance’s “The Dragon Masters,” where the dragons are alien animals bed for combat. And that novel, too, is often categorized as fantasy. The debate itself is pointless, as categories are incredibly fuzzy. But, c’mon. Time travelling telepathic flying fire-breathing dragons partnered with people who cast magic spells. That doesn’t mesh too well with, say, “I Robot” and “The Caves of Steel.” ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/85 "2013-08-28T01:13:38Z")
> [@bump](#): > > By your reckoning, you could count the first 3 Shannara books by Terry Brooks as science fiction, because they allude to ancients and have the occasional reference to our world. My reckoning is that I accept what the book is telling me about whether it is fantasy, or science fiction in fantasy drag. Pern clearly sets out to be a (squishy soft) science fiction setting. Shannara is explicitly a “magic returns to the world” _fantasy_ setting (although perhaps “science” shows up in one of the endless tide of Shannara sequels; I’m certainly not reading the damn things to find out, though). ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/86 "2013-08-28T02:16:45Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Menolly is an obvious Mary Sue. And to shift the thread away from the fantasy/SF debate… I don’t think Menolly is a Mary Sue. Sure, she’s the central figure of the Harper Hall books, but after she grows up, she’s pretty much much a minor character in the Pern books. IIRC, after the Harper Hall Trilogy, I don’t think McCaffrey tells any of the narrative from Menolly’s point of view. If McCaffrey was a man, I would say Robinton is a total Mary Sue. As an aside, I was surprised to see that more recent editions of Dragonsong and Dragonsinger depict Menolly as blond on their covers. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/87 "2013-08-28T02:48:11Z")
If saying that something is set on a planet in outer space makes a story science fiction rather than fantasy, then Discworld is science fiction, too. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/88 "2013-08-28T02:53:35Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > If McCaffrey was a man, I would say Robinton is a total Mary Sue. Now, this, I agree with. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/89 "2013-08-28T02:57:04Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > And to shift the thread away from the fantasy/SF debate… Oops. Sorry. Tedious, I know. Can I recoup just a little honor by mentioning, again, how really super nifty a guy Todd McCaffrey is? He’s a favorite in the southern California convention circuit, and absolutely the nicest guy on the planet. Funny, too. His readings are to die for, and his comedy is gold. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/90 "2013-08-28T04:21:36Z")
So if he’s a favorite on the southern California convention circuit, does that mean that he lives there now? I was assuming that he inherited his mother’s house in Ireland and now lives there. Back in 1995 I actually visited that house. I was on a tour group of American science fiction fans who were headed to Worldcon in Glasgow. An American fan who had previously worked as a travel agent organized the trip. We individually flew into Dublin and then traveled around Ireland (going clockwise) by bus, seeing the usual sights. When we got to Belfast, we flew to Edinburgh and did some sightseeing. Then we traveled to Glasgow, where the tour ended and Worldcon started. We individually flew home from there. But, anyway, early in the trip we visited the homes of Anne McCaffrey and Katherine Kurtz. (Kurtz has since moved back to the U.S.) My memory is that Todd was living with her then. I had assume that since he inherited the Pern series, he also inherited the house. Of course, Anne had two other children, so perhaps each got a third of the house when she died and they decided to sell the house. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/91 "2013-08-28T06:16:18Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > References to the Arrhenius equation to explain the setting are a pretty clear indication you’re not in a “fantasy” setting. The reference isn’t to the equation - Arrhenius was also a proponent of [panspermia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia#History) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/92 "2013-08-28T06:46:31Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > So if he’s a favorite on the southern California convention circuit, does that mean that he lives there now? . . . I believe so. He’s usually at LosCon, and at Comic-Con, and in February, he was even at ConDor – which is tiny. No way he’d travel from Ireland for that one! I have no idea what the status of the house or property would be. (He inherited the good property: the license to write stories in Anne McCaffrey’s worlds!) ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/93 "2013-08-28T12:42:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If saying that something is set on a planet in outer space makes a story science fiction rather than fantasy, then Discworld is science fiction, too. What type of story do ridiculous straw men arguments make? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/94 "2013-08-28T14:14:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If saying that something is set on a planet in outer space makes a story science fiction rather than fantasy, then Discworld is science fiction, too. What if you say that the story is about a lost colony who lost their tech rediscovering it’s old tech and heritage with the help of native creatures that the original colonists genetically enhanced and modified. And then dealing with the vast societal changes that occur as a result of jumping from late bronze age tech to late 1700s tech in a single generation? Have you ever actually _read_ the books? I mean, seriously–lost tech figures in from the prologue on, and yeah, while the first 2/3ds of the first book deal with the social revolution needed to start rediscovering the tech, the other books in the series all deal with rediscovering lost tech (and the end of the first book touches on it). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/95 "2013-08-28T14:29:03Z")
Yes, but that’s all far secondary to the dragons. Cut out the lost tech and leave the dragons, and you have basically the same story. Cut out the dragons and leave the lost tech, and it’s completely unrecognizable. Heck, Lord of the Rings had long-lost technology, too. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/96 "2013-08-28T14:41:56Z")
No. You don’t have the same story at all, except in the first 2/3ds of the first book. Every book beyond the first 2/3ds (3/4ths maybe) of the books deals more and more with the tech–hell, a huge chunk of book 2 involves the ramifications of discovering telescopes\* (and flamethrowers). And book 3 is largely about exploring another continent and discovering more old tech. A more valid statement would be: Cut out the dragons and replace them with flying cars that can teleport and you have the same story, except for the first 2/3ds or so of the first book. The “I wuv my wunderful dragon” stuff is there, secondarily, in later books but except for the first book and a plot point (a stolen queen dragon egg) in either the 2nd or the 3d, the dragons are transportion, not plot-points. \*Teleporting requires a mental picture of where you’re going. The “red sun” seen through a telescope suddenly has features that can be made out. Suddenly there’s a huge social push to have the dragonriders teleport there and wipe out the thread at the source. “Exploring how a tech innovation affects society.” One of the classic definitions of SF. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/97 "2013-08-28T14:44:07Z")
Duplicate post-ignore pls ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/98 "2013-08-28T15:56:02Z")
The “Shadowrun” universe is a mixture of magic and technology. I don’t get this binary “either/or” mindset. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/99 "2013-08-28T20:01:37Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > The “Shadowrun” universe is a mixture of magic and technology. I don’t get this binary “either/or” mindset. 🙂 A deep concern with the “dividing line” is probably rooted in different things for different people. Some, clearly, are using it to define themselves (and claim a certain place in the pecking order). The assumption for such people is that fantasy is an inferior genre, one that the claimant would NEVER stoop to read. Another possible reason for wanting to divide fantasy from science fiction: a conviction that fantasy plotting always involves contrivances, aka ass-pulls. I’m not the biggest consumer of fantasy by any means, but even I don’t believe that authors who posit the existence of Magic are automatically to be considered lazy or lousy plotters. (Some are, of course. But that’s true of some writers of science fiction, too.) Personally, I’m not a believer in the supernatural. So authors whose stories depend upon the supernatural for effect have to get some pretty glowing reviews for me to be willing to give them my time (let alone money). ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/100 "2013-08-28T20:36:53Z")
Actually, I’m pretty concerned about where the dividing line is. And I don’t consider fantasy to be inferior. I read both fantasy and SF, and my SF favorites range from very hard indeed (Robert Forward, Vernor Vinge) to quite soft and squishy (Sheri S. Tepper, LeGuin, etc.). Yes, I like pigeonholes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048.md?page=6)