# What do you think about the Pern books? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 24, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048 "2013-08-24T11:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/121 "2013-08-29T15:25:05Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > No, Tolkien’s magic was inborn and not learned. Some was, some wasn’t - Gandalf at Moria-gate says he learned/used to know many runes and spells for opening doors, the Elves under Celebrimbor learned the basics of ringlore from Sauron, etc. Clearly while _power_ is inate, _some_ uses of it are more like technological training or academic study. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/122 "2013-08-29T15:25:14Z")
The difference between science fiction and fantasy is very much an “I know it when I see it” situation. I don’t think any hard and fast rules really exist, that can’t be countered with specific examples. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/123 "2013-08-29T15:26:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Fenris** : > > My objection is to people who see a book that’s clearly science fiction, look at the covers and say “Lookit! Dragons! There must be wizards and magic and goblins…cause…dragons! Amirite?” And by the same token, my objection is to people who see a book that’s clearly fantasy, look at the prologue and say "Lookit! Spaceships! ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/124 "2013-08-29T15:26:44Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > “From Elfland to Poughkeepsie” in Le Guin’s The Language of Night Ooh! I read that this summer, it was on the Odyssey assigned reading list. Unfortunately, Le Guin lost me right off the start when she picked on Katherine Kurtz’s “Deryni Rising” as a bad example, showing how a short exchange of dialog could have a few words tweaked and slot right into a modern Washington political thriller, and thus that the language was _unworthy of being fantasy._ One of the things I like about the Deryni books was how they blended the historical fantasy genre with political thriller, be it royal politics, feudal politics, or ecclesiastical politics. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/125 "2013-08-29T15:35:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Some was, some wasn’t - Gandalf at Moria-gate says he learned/used to know many runes and spells for opening doors, the Elves under Celebrimbor learned the basics of ringlore from Sauron, etc. Clearly while _power_ is inate, _some_ uses of it are more like technological training or academic study. Gandalf was a Maiar, and what is possible for him to learn is not a good metric to compare what other Middle-Earthlings might learn. IIRC, in several of Tolkien’s letters he refutes that what the elves do (lembas, the rope & cloaks from Lothlorien) is “magic”. Elves are just very, very good at what they do because they’re immortal and have forever to practice. What Sauron taught them is probably “magic”. Tolkien was very disparaging of “magic”. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/126 "2013-08-29T15:37:17Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Dragons. Noble and peasant classes, and damned little upward mobility. Fortified keeps. Patriarchal conventions. Guild system. Magic/psionics. > > Now, the lack of religion DOES argue for SF rather than fantasy, but we have God Walking Among Us (Robinton). But then God dies at the end! (or should I spoiler that?) ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/127 "2013-08-29T15:37:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And by the same token, my objection is to people who see a book that’s clearly fantasy, look at the prologue and say "Lookit! Spaceships! Okay, probably not going to convince you, but my opinion is that the books aren’t ‘clearly’ fantasy just because of the dragons. The dragons are portrayed throughout as alien, not faerie; otherworldly but not magical. Every other element in the books backs this up, the spaceships, the discovery of lost tech, even the social and cultural development of the humans. I’ll admit that when you rhyme off all the ‘extraordinary’ properties and abilities of the dragons, it’s loading the deck a little for one alien species, but each of them have SF precedents. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/128 "2013-08-29T15:49:03Z")
I think it’s safe to say that as a whole, the Pern corpus is science-fiction. However, the first books tend to have a whole lot more fantasy to them than science, and I think that was intentional and that the books are intended to be a sort of fantasy novel with science-fiction underpinnings. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/129 "2013-08-29T16:07:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And by the same token, my objection is to people who see a book that’s clearly fantasy, look at the prologue and say "Lookit! Spaceships! The prologue, the last 1/3d of the first book and the umpteen books following that first one ALL of which involve various levels of tech up to and including a self-aware computer, a spaceship with a matter/antimatter (IIRC) engine, lasers, high-level chemistry, and down to such basic things as glass-blowing, wire-making, basic battery technology, etc. and so on. With Pern, yeah, if you only read the “Weyrsearch” section of the first book (and somehow manage to skip the introduction that sets up the last 1/3) and then stop reading, 2/3ds of the way through the first book without reading the last third when Lessa goes back in time and finds the old-timers with obviously high-tech stuff that’s been lost by her time…yeah, “dragons! fantasy!:)”. But then, that’s the sort of person who’d complain that “They never do get rid of that damned ring!” after only reading _Fellowship_ and _The Two Towers_ but not reading _Return of the King_. I don’t agree with Trinopus that psi automatically means the book is fantasy, but at least his position is consistent and he’s clearly read the books (and the posts here). ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/130 "2013-08-29T16:09:45Z")
If you re-read Dragonquest, bear in mind that this started as a short story. The place where the short story ends is pretty obvious once you know this. IIRC, the naming convention was not that well thought out in the short story portion, and some of the dragonriders actually had non-apostrophed names. IMO, this is one of the weakest points of the world building - I could see if a rider adopted part of the dragon’s name or something indicating his rank in the dragon hierarchy, but just eliding the first syllable of his name is kind of lame. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/131 "2013-08-29T16:16:09Z")
With the thread in this much of a dander over how sci-fi is sci-fi and fantasy is fantasy and never the twain shall meet, I shudder to think what might happen if they were asked to define the Dark Tower series. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/132 "2013-08-29T16:17:15Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > With Pern, yeah, if you only read the “Weyrsearch” section of the first book (and somehow manage to skip the introduction that sets up the last 1/3) and then stop reading, 2/3ds of the way through the first book without reading the last third when Lessa goes back in time and finds the old-timers with obviously high-tech stuff that’s been lost by her time…yeah, “dragons! fantasy!:)”. But then, that’s the sort of person who’d complain that “They never do get rid of that damned ring!” after only reading _Fellowship_ and _The Two Towers_ but not reading _Return of the King_. A more accurate analogy would be someone who only read up to the Tom Bombadil portion of _Fellowship_, and thought the trilogy was a light, whimsical Boy’s Own adventure like _the Hobbit_. By the way, Pernese dragons have the bog-standard trio of “psionic powers”: telepathy, telekinesis, and teleportation. The telekinesis and teleportation are clearly present immediately in the books (even in the Weyrsearch portion). The telekinesis is only implied as the means that they can fly, until made explicit in _the White Dragon_ (when they’re going against the Red Star). “Psionic powers” – particularly in the era that McCaffery was writing in – have always been a SciFi trope, not a fantasy one. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/133 "2013-08-29T17:48:31Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Dragons. Noble and peasant classes, and damned little upward mobility. Fortified keeps. Patriarchal conventions. Guild system. **Magic/psionics**. Emphasis added. See in my head I can’t buy that psionics = magic. Two distinct things. Anyone who has ever played Dungeons and Dragons will tell you the same :D. There is no magic as I define it in the Pern books. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Psi by the boat-load yes ( including psionic empathy, to add one unmentioned above ), but no magic per se. Shit, even _Vulcans_ have psi ;). ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/134 "2013-08-29T18:59:32Z")
Hell, I’ve played D&D. I’d still be doing so, if I could commit to a regular playing schedule and could find a group of adults to play with. Psionics is another term for magic or mental powers, to my way of thinking. It was made up because some science fiction readers didn’t want any hint of fantasy in their SF (my grandfather was one of those) and they would accept something called psionics or mental powers in a story, but wouldn’t accept the same power if it was called magic. For instance, telekinesis is supposedly psionic…but it’s also a very common magical power. Same with teleportation. You’ll find examples of telekinesis and teleportation in both fantasy and SF stories. For that matter, you’ll find examples of telepathy in both kinds, too, though it seems to be rarer in fantasy. This [scene](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bd5YUEOwlE) of Merlin packing up is pure fantasy. That ain’t no psionics he’s using, it’s magic through and through. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/135 "2013-08-29T19:23:24Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > If you haven’t read Watt-Evans Esthshar books, you should–he’s a master of saying “Here are the “rules” of how magic works, now figure out how to use them to get out of this problem.” > Great stuff Thanks–that does sound like something I’d enjoy. I’ve made a note of it. As for your post just before the one to which I reply: you wrote > [@](#): > > So, I’m wondering which posters in this thread you were talking about who are trying to “distance themselves from fantasy”? I’m not much on calling people out in a thread. Not for a topic with as little ethical import as this one, certainly. 🙂 But, yes, I think some have demonstrated some irritability at the very suggestion that something they regard as inferior (fantasy) should be confused with something they regard as respectable (science fiction). Funny how those who prefer fantasy rarely seem to concern themselves with such hierarchical notions; they just say they prefer fantasy. (And I say that as someone who prefers science fiction.) ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/136 "2013-08-29T19:40:07Z")
I also like the Ethshar books. I suggest starting with \*\*The Misenchanted Sword \*\*or **With a Single Spell**. **Ithanalin’s Restoration** is about another miscast spell, where a wizard goes to pieces and his apprentice has to sort him out. I like most of Watt-Evans’ other series, too, except for the Annals of the Chosen. The Brown Magician series is about three universes, one in which magic works, one in which different scientific principles work (and it includes telepathy), and our own universe. Watt-Evans has written at least a couple of straight SF books, too. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/137 "2013-08-29T19:57:59Z")
Maybe I’m misremembering some of the Ethshar books… [spoiler]but isn’t there a crashed spaceship there, as the source of Warlockry? Actually, speaking of: there _is_ a crashed spaceship in the D&D Mystara background as the source of magic there. It’s in Glantri. One of the “immortals” altered it’s energy source to power wizardly magic.[/spoiler] > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Hell, I’ve played D&D. I’d still be doing so, if I could commit to a regular playing schedule and could find a group of adults to play with. > > Psionics is another term for magic or mental powers, to my way of thinking. It was made up because some science fiction readers didn’t want any hint of fantasy in their SF (my grandfather was one of those) and they would accept something called psionics or mental powers in a story, but wouldn’t accept the same power if it was called magic. Hoo, boy. Back in the day there was a _furor_ over the psionics rules showing up in D&D. “That’s not fantasy!” Worse yet, by the time of the _Player’s Handbook_, there was also _Gamma World_ – which is where all those grognards declaired psionics truly belonged. Gygax, as was his wont, came up with a completely different set of rules for psionics than for magic, just to emphasize the difference. But stubbornly persisted in getting his chocolate in his peanut butter. Er, psionics in his fantasy. Of course, to later generations of D&Ders, it became sort of a sacred cow… but still not the same thing as “magic”. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/138 "2013-08-29T20:21:00Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Psionics is another term for magic or mental powers, to my way of thinking. It was made up because some science fiction readers didn’t want any hint of fantasy in their SF (my grandfather was one of those) and they would accept something called psionics or mental powers in a story, but wouldn’t accept the same power if it was called magic. I read of a real-world [experiment](http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/08/27/researcher-controls-colleagues-motions-in-1st-human-brain-to-brain-interface/) yesterday (and started an MPSIMS [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=700744) about it). In the experiment, a pair of researchers used an EEG machine and a magnetic stimulus rig to enable one of them to remotely control the other’s index finger while they were in separate labs. Specifically, the originator of the impulse made the other guy press the space bar on a keyboard by imagining pressing the space bar on his own, without actually doing so. Again, this is a thing that has been done in the real world using existing technology. There is also real-world scientific support for the idea that biological organisms [could generate radio waves](http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423827/how-bacteria-could-generate-radio-waves/), although the evidence of any known organism doing so is disputed. Now, project it forward. Assume that we discover or engineer an organism that can produce radio signals biologically. We isolate the mechanism it uses to do so and engineer it into a human brain such that it will transmit certain signals when various triggering events occur in the motor cortices. Now, in another person’s brain, we add the corresponding mechanism that induces signals in the motor cortices when it senses certain patterns of radio waves. Now we have a pair of individuals, one of whom can control the other’s body by thinking at him. Since we’ve genetically engineered these sophisticated little lumps of neural tissue, we might have a whole population that can do this. If we connect our little organic machines to the frontal cortex instead of a motor cortex, it might even cause the receiver to subvocalize words the sender is thinking. Congratulations, we now have psychic domination and telepathic communication, respectively. Are those effects magic? They’re projections of existing science and technology, which is a pretty solid element of science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/139 "2013-08-29T20:55:23Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > . . . I don’t agree with Trinopus that psi automatically means the book is fantasy, but at least his position is consistent and he’s clearly read the books (and the posts here). Many sincere thanks. That’s all, really, anybody can ask in a friendly debate. FWIW, I’m a huge fan of the Traveller SF role playing game. I have been since Day Zero, and I even have an “additional design” credit in a Traveller supplement. And…I think the psionics rules ruin the game and should be ignored by game refs. They change it from an SF rpg to a Fantasy rpg. (And, sure, I play lots of fantasy rpgs too! RuneQuest is gorgeous stuff! I proudly carry an “Illusion” rune!) East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet… ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/140 "2013-08-29T21:23:49Z")
Psi abilities are pure science, there’s peer-reviewed research on the topic. (Most of which says it doesn’t work, much like cold fusion.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048.md?page=8)