# What do you think about the Pern books? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 24, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048 "2013-08-24T11:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/141 "2013-08-29T21:40:23Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I also like the Ethshar books. I suggest starting with \*\*The Misenchanted Sword \*\*or **With a Single Spell**. **Ithanalin’s Restoration** is about another miscast spell, where a wizard goes to pieces and his apprentice has to sort him out. I like most of Watt-Evans’ other series, too, except for the Annals of the Chosen. The Brown Magician series is about three universes, one in which magic works, one in which different scientific principles work (and it includes telepathy), and our own universe. Watt-Evans has written at least a couple of straight SF books, too. I have corresponded with Watt-Evans, asking him why no more Ethshar, why he’s going off in a new fantasy world ( A Young Man Without Magic- The Fall of the Sorcerers, which I consider not anywhere as interesting) . Apparently the last few books in the Ethshar series have declined in sales, so his publishers want him to do something else. Boo!☹ ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/142 "2013-08-29T22:26:32Z")
Since we’re talking about Pern, I wanted to mention one of the world-building problems I had with it. We’ve got a planet that has an easily tamed, attractive and useful creature, with habitats within walking distance from the human settlements, yet Menolly is the first person in recorded history to tame a fire lizard (and it’s not that she’s special - once she tells other people how to do it, it becomes a fairly common thing). ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/143 "2013-08-29T23:06:13Z")
Boys and girls, early SF is awash with psychic powers. It was “science”. Rhine was doing science and it was just a matter of time before we nailed down exactly what the human mind was capable of. Telepathy, telekinesis, levitation, teleportation, precognition, and a whole host of other possible talents that had been anecdotally reported throughout human history were finally being given serious and rigorous study, and early results were extremely promising. So including psychic powers as part of the furniture of the future world was extremely plausible back in the ancient days of the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Telepathy was part of it, just like flying cars and food pills and jumpsuits. And it turned out that absolutely all of it turned out to be not reproducible. Still, I don’t see how a story that has faster than light travel can be science fiction, but a story that features a society with medieval technology and social structure must be fantasy. Medieval technology and feudalism are not fantastic, they are real world things that some people on Earth here in 2013 are still dealing with. Faster than light travel violates the laws of physics, and is therefore magic. Seriously, read older science fiction and it is just chock-full of psychic powers. Sometimes psionics is a key part of the story, sometimes it’s a “the door dilated” worldbuilding touch. Of course even modern science fiction still has this sort of thing, although modern “hard” science fiction doesn’t. There are plenty of series labeled “science fiction” that are indistinguishable from Mercedes Lackey pony magic stories except the powers are labeled “psionic” rather than magic. And lots of fantasy stories nowadays have very “psionic” seeming magic systems–no eye of newt or selling your soul to Satan the way medieval peasants imagined magic would work. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/144 "2013-08-29T23:15:01Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So including psychic powers as part of the furniture of the future world was extremely plausible back in the ancient days of the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Telepathy was part of it, just like flying cars and food pills and jumpsuits. Yep. Hal Clement, of all people, had at least one story with telepathy for example. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/145 "2013-08-29T23:17:05Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Since we’re talking about Pern, I wanted to mention one of the world-building problems I had with it. We’ve got a planet that has an easily tamed, attractive and useful creature, with habitats within walking distance from the human settlements, yet Menolly is the first person in recorded history to tame a fire lizard (and it’s not that she’s special - once she tells other people how to do it, it becomes a fairly common thing). They were originally tamed on the southern continent, where they were apparently quite common. On the northern continent, they’re rare enough that they’re considered legendary until some are brought back from the south. Menolly just happened to stumble across one of the few colonies of them around, on a remote and inaccessible patch of beach. Aside from the clutches in and around her cove, nearly all the other fire lizards in the north were brought (as eggs) from the southern continent. It’s established that the northern continent is a harsher environment; there may just not be many places fire lizards would thrive there on their own. It’s even plausible that the long interval was associated with unfavorable climate effects that resulted in the northern lizard population dying out, and the queen Menolly helped was one of the first to start recolonizing the continent. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/146 "2013-08-29T23:19:13Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > They were originally tamed on the southern continent, where they were apparently quite common. On the northern continent, they’re rare enough that they’re considered legendary until some are brought back from the south. Menolly just happened to stumble across one of the few colonies of them around, on a remote and inaccessible patch of beach. Aside from the clutches in and around her cove, nearly all the other fire lizards in the north were brought (as eggs) from the southern continent. > > It’s established that the northern continent is a harsher environment; there may just not be many places fire lizards would thrive there on their own. It’s even plausible that the long interval was associated with unfavorable climate effects that resulted in the northern lizard population dying out, and the queen Menolly helped was one of the first to start recolonizing the continent. Thanks. I had forgotten this background information. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/147 "2013-08-29T23:33:40Z")
He should perhaps do what some others have done and dome some sort of pay him directly for content thing that others have done. That way he can eliminate the publishers and get paid straight from his fan base. If he does it a chapter at a time, and fits in the writing as he can it won’t take away from his main new novels. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/148 "2013-08-30T00:12:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (And, sure, I play lots of fantasy rpgs too! RuneQuest is gorgeous stuff! I proudly carry an “Illusion” rune!) Hmmm. Illusion would be Trickster or Lunar. Either way… Call up the fyrd and git a rope, boys! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/149 "2013-08-30T01:09:23Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > He should perhaps do what some others have done and dome some sort of pay him directly for content thing that others have done. That way he can eliminate the publishers and get paid straight from his fan base. If he does it a chapter at a time, and fits in the writing as he can it won’t take away from his main new novels. He has done this very thing. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/150 "2013-08-30T01:55:06Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Hmmm. Illusion would be Trickster or Lunar. Either way… > > Call up the fyrd and git a rope, boys! Oops… Does it help to say we play in an “original universe” and not in the canonical Chaosium “Dragon Pass” universe? (I still have Dragon Pass…um…somewhere in storage. I can’t remember… What was the name of the Illusionist Troupe?") ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/151 "2013-08-30T04:05:01Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (I still have Dragon Pass…um…somewhere in storage. I can’t remember… What was the name of the Illusionist Troupe?") Donandar, maybe. (although he’s Harmony & Truth). ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/152 "2013-08-30T11:19:19Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I don’t agree with this one unequivically. > > 1. Ever hear of the wizard’s college? Magic can be learned. Tolkien called magic “lore”, which is another word for “knowledge”. > > 2. To someone who doesn’t know the lingo, when Wesley “shunts the plasma flow back through the power invertors, bypassing the flow regulators, and redirecting it all through the deflector array (to reverse polarity, 'natch)”, all they see is him chanting a litany, making some arcane jestures (or pressing magical runes on a table, if you wish), and allakazzam tremendous energies leap forth from seemingly nowhere to do his bidding. 1. Yep, but all the wizard’s colleges I’ve ever read about are for those who show inborn ability. From _A Wizard of Earthsea_ to the Harry Potter stories (Muggles, anyone?) to _[So You Want to Be a Wizard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_You_Want_to_Be_a_Wizard)_, magic is learnable, but you need talent, choosing, something extra that other people don’t have to do real magic. In some worlds, it’s shown that everyone has some ability to do charms or something, but only the truly talented can do anything substantial with magic. I’m no Tolkein scholar, but from what I remember none of the magic users we see in LotR are mundane: Maiar (Gandalf, Saruman), Elves (Galadriel, Elrond), Elder Race (Tom Bombadil, Beorn). No Men or Hobbits are seen doing magic, and by that omission and the sentiments clearly expressed by Tolkein elsewhere, the ability to meddle with the stuff of the universe lies with those closer to the source; i.e.: those races who are older than Men and Hobbits. When they leave Middle Earth, the implication is that most of the magic goes with them. 1. I’ve made [that exact point](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php) myself. > [@me](#): > > Star Trek technology might just as well be magic since a great deal of the technobabble is about as scientific as Harry Potter’s incantations are Latin. > > Geordie: “We can do it if we reverse the polarity and focus the energy beam through this eleven inch holly wand with a phoenix core, Captain.” > > Picard: “Make it so.” > > Troi: “I’m sensing a buildup of flame in the dragon’s throat.” > > Riker: “Steady, Worf —” > > Worf: “Spell is fully charged.” > > Picard: “Now!” > > Worf: “Stupefy!” > [@Andy\_L](#): > > Since we’re talking about Pern, I wanted to mention one of the world-building problems I had with it. We’ve got a planet that has an easily tamed, attractive and useful creature, with habitats within walking distance from the human settlements, yet Menolly is the first person in recorded history to tame a fire lizard (and it’s not that she’s special - once she tells other people how to do it, it becomes a fairly common thing). Pernese dragons were bioengineered from the native fire lizard source stock. The Southern Continent was abandoned so long ago that everyone thinks of it as more of an origin legend than a real place. Its rediscovery is a key plot point starting even in Dragonflight. It was abandoned only a few years after the landing colony was founded due to a combination of nasty volcanic activity and dealing with the first threadfall. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/153 "2013-08-30T15:11:39Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m no Tolkein scholar, but from what I remember none of the magic users we see in LotR are mundane: Maiar (Gandalf, Saruman), Elves (Galadriel, Elrond), Elder Race (Tom Bombadil, Beorn). No Men or Hobbits are seen doing magic, and by that omission and the sentiments clearly expressed by Tolkein elsewhere, the ability to meddle with the stuff of the universe lies with those closer to the source; i.e.: those races who are older than Men and Hobbits. When they leave Middle Earth, the implication is that most of the magic goes with them. Some sources of less-solid canonicity have the Druedain (Ghan-buri-Ghan’s ancestors) magically animating statues. And there are some things that are clearly described as “craft” by those in the know, but which common folk regard as “magic”, that were done by humans: The impervious walls of Orthanc, for instance, or the Barrow-Blades that undid the Witch-King’s spell. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/154 "2013-08-30T15:45:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Some sources of less-solid canonicity have the Druedain (Ghan-buri-Ghan’s ancestors) magically animating statues. And there are some things that are clearly described as “craft” by those in the know, but which common folk regard as “magic”, that were done by humans: The impervious walls of Orthanc, for instance, or the Barrow-Blades that undid the Witch-King’s spell. Aragorn “Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with _spells_ for the bane of Mordor.” ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/155 "2013-08-30T17:45:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have corresponded with Watt-Evans, asking him why no more Ethshar, why he’s going off in a new fantasy world ( A Young Man Without Magic- The Fall of the Sorcerers, which I consider not anywhere as interesting) . Apparently the last few books in the Ethshar series have declined in sales, so his publishers want him to do something else. Boo!☹ Except he’s doing new Ethshar books–he’s got a pay-per-book thing going. I’ve gotten four or five books that way. The newest one JUST came out a few weeks ago. > **[Lawrence Watt-Evans: The Misenchanted Page](http://www.watt-evans.com/index2.shtml)** > > April Fool ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/156 "2013-08-30T21:02:36Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > McCaffrey wanted her heroines to have sex without being responsible for the sex taking place. Thus the dragon-assisted rape; the different treatment of male and female “brawns” in the Ship stories; the ‘kidnapped by aliens’ excuse for the “Restoree” heroine becoming the mistress (OMG!) of a Strong Man. Sara, in _Restoree_, was not Harlan’s mistress. She was his “dear lady”, meaning she was his wife. They didn’t have intercourse until well after his declaration and claiming of Sara. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/157 "2013-08-30T21:05:24Z")
In the interest of science I picked up _Dragonflight_ today for the first time since middle school. …meh. I mean, I’ve read worse, but I’ve definitely read better too. Not sure what was so great about it for me as a kid. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/158 "2013-08-30T21:49:29Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > Sara, in _Restoree_, was not Harlan’s mistress. She was his “dear lady”, meaning she was his wife. They didn’t have intercourse until well after his declaration and claiming of Sara. You’ve reinforced my point about McCaffrey’s gender-role conservatism. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/159 "2013-08-30T22:20:38Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Except he’s doing new Ethshar books–he’s got a pay-per-book thing going. I’ve gotten four or five books that way. The newest one JUST came out a few weeks ago. > > [Lawrence Watt-Evans: The Misenchanted Page](http://www.watt-evans.com/index2.html) Yes, see post 149. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048/160 "2013-08-30T23:18:09Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > In the interest of science I picked up _Dragonflight_ today for the first time since middle school. Wait a minute, now. In the interest of science or in the interest of fantasy ;)? > [@Zsofia](#): > > …meh. I mean, I’ve read worse, but I’ve definitely read better too. Not sure what was so great about it for me as a kid. I re-read the original trilogy and the Harper Hall trilogy in my late twenties after first having picked them up and enjoyed them in my teens and I found the first two a lot weaker the second time around. The Harper Hall stuff ( at least the first two ) were about as I remembered them and The White Dragon was a little better than the earlier books, but yeah as a whole they didn’t hold up that great. Not bad, just nothing exceptional. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-the-pern-books/667048.md?page=9)