# What do you think about these "smart guns"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 24, 2024, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283 "2024-03-24T14:34:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/41 "2024-03-25T13:22:44Z")
Concerning what is expected of smart guns by some in this thread, are we to assume that gun safes are 100% effective? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/42 "2024-03-25T13:35:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You dont think a “smart gun” can’t be stolen? When guns are being stolen to be sold on the black market, a weapon recognizable as a “smart gun” might not be a desirable target. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/43 "2024-03-25T13:37:06Z")
From an engineering perspective, incorporating fingerprint technology into a safe would be more reliable vs. incorporating it into a gun. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/44 "2024-03-25T13:39:53Z")
How so? (legit question, not just being the annoying “why?” kid here) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/45 "2024-03-25T13:49:27Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > From an engineering perspective, incorporating fingerprint technology into a safe would be more reliable vs. incorporating it into a gun. - Ever try to conceal carry a safe? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/46 "2024-03-25T15:00:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Except reliability has two sides. A device that doesn’t work when it’s supposed to is unreliable, but so is a device that does work when it’s not supposed to. And current firearms have a really, really high rate of working when they’re not supposed to, with tragic results. > > These guns are probably significantly more reliable, overall, than current handguns. Perfect? Of course not. Nothing is. Is the increase in reliability worth the price tag? Probably not, though that’ll come down in time. I don’t think that’s an honest comparison; you’re conflating mechanical reliability with situational “supposed to”. It’s similar to arguing that guns are dangerous when that’s the entire point of their existence. Until all guns come with built-in AGI and can obey the Laws of Robotics, firearms don’t have their own agency. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/47 "2024-03-25T15:19:16Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I don’t think that’s an honest comparison; you’re conflating mechanical reliability with situational “supposed to”. It’s similar to arguing that guns are dangerous when that’s the entire point of their existence. Computers are way more complicated than guns and can suffer many more “mechanical errors” than guns, but the large majority of issues we handle in the tech department are “user error”. “Smart guns” reduce the possibility of human error by severely restricting who can fire them. Gun owners say, “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” I say, “Guns aren’t stupid and careless, people are.” ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/48 "2024-03-25T15:51:35Z")
Workable smart guns get introduced. Half an hour later the first “how to crack a smart gun” videos appear on YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/49 "2024-03-25T16:33:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Concerning what is expected of smart guns by some in this thread, are we to assume that gun safes are 100% effective? The locking mechanisms in most bedside gun safes and trigger locks can be bypassed with pretty simple procedures and improvised tools. I won’t link to any videos for legal reasons but you can find copious examples from “The Lockpicking Lawyer” using such common items as plastic bottles, shims cut from aluminum cans, a bent piece of piano wire, et cetera. Actual vault-type safes with a spin dial or keypad are more secure (provided that the code is not someplace readily accessible) but will take much longer to open, especially under stress. This product, if it functions reliably, addresses the issue of having a weapon accessible and ready for use without having to secure it in a separate container, and because the security functions are fundamentally built into the firing mechanism, it cannot be readily bypassed (again, assuming it works as indicated). ‘Smart guns’ do not make a firearm ‘safe’; they do prevent unauthorized use, which is a desirable feature by people who want to keep an accessible weapon in a home with children or untrusted visitors. Any firearm is a hazardous device by definition of its essential function, and the user needs to be trained and should demonstrate competency in not only functioning the weapon but also cognizance in the legal and practical consequences of discharging a weapon outside of a firing range. The notion that a firearm will recognize a threat and only permit the user to fire is beyond any rational expectation, and regardless, the user is ultimately responsible for the consequences. Trying to make a weapon so foolproof that an inexperienced or irresponsible person could pick it up and use it is an absurd criteria. Nor will this product be a solution to the broader problem of criminal and mass shootings for obvious reasons. I will say as a former firearm trainer who who (unintentionally) specialized in training female students, that at least a third of students expressed a concern about keeping a firearm in the home because children might access it, and that is the explicit market for this product. It is also the case that police and military are also concerned about unauthorized use of weapons that are often accessible to multiple unauthorized people, and at least a few police departments have had trial experiments with trigger control devices such as Magna-Trigger (which has a magnetic ring that the user has to wear to deactivate an internal trigger block) but found the devices to be wanting in terms of reliability. The features that this weapon demonstrates are potentially applicable to those uses, although how well it would function in the field where a user is wearing gloves, sunglasses, and other protective gear makes those uses questionable. The cost is onerous but is likely a consequence of low production rate and the cost of all of the engineering that went into the integrated design of the weapon (versus an ‘add-on’ trigger block that can be removed or bypassed). The bigger problem with most practical uses is the bulk of the device, and while some of the electronics are probably amenable to reduction in size, the need for sensors protruding out where they can be accessible limits how small it can be made. Nonetheless, this is an interesting development for an important use case that, if it proves to be reliable will likely be copied by other manufacturers. It will not, however, replace all of the non-user authenticating firearms currently in circulation, and laws to enforce only sales of weapons with this device for general use are not well-conceived measures to prevent illicit use. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/50 "2024-03-25T18:03:15Z")
Kind of ironic gun control advocates shot themselves in the foot by immediately passing laws mandating smart guns be the only guns on the market when technology allows them, because now this entirely ensures they will never come out on the market except from niche manufacturers. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/51 "2024-03-25T18:03:41Z")
LockPickingLawyer says hi ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/52 "2024-03-25T18:16:36Z")
It’s an interesting discussion, but probably not the right one for this thread, but pointing back to the thread I linked earlier, you can see a _noticeable_ improvement in the tech in just three years - integrated solutions, not the _very_ easily spammed/jammed RFID and other earlier techs, a useable caliber, an more-or-less equal price (still too high IMHO) despite years of inflation and better technology. As I said in my earlier post I’m more or less in agreement with @Stranger_On_A_Train’s POV - > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Nonetheless, this is an interesting development for an important use case that, if it proves to be reliable will likely be copied by other manufacturers. It will not, however, replace all of the non-user authenticating firearms currently in circulation, and laws to enforce only sales of weapons with this device for general use are not well-conceived measures to prevent illicit use. With some minor quibbling on the last point quoted. I -want- this research to continue, to improve, because waiting on generational/attitudinal change to influence the political scope of the problem is likely to take longer than any of us want to accept. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/53 "2024-03-25T18:35:37Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Kind of ironic gun control advocates shot themselves in the foot by immediately passing laws mandating smart guns be the only guns on the market when technology allows them, because now this entirely ensures they will never come out on the market except from niche manufacturers. New Jersey at least realized that it backfired (cough) badly and back in 2019 amended the law to only be required as an option in gun stores once it becomes available. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/54 "2024-03-25T19:47:48Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > 100 percent is not a realistic standard. Precisely 100 is a realistic standard. The chance of a regulation revolver or pistol failing to operate is down less than 1%. > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Any magazine that published a positive review would lose a lot subscribers [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-04-13/smart-gun-maker-biofire-hopes-to-sell-a-safer-handgun](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-04-13/smart-gun-maker-biofire-hopes-to-sell-a-safer-handgun) > **[Biofire Announces World’s First Practical Smart Gun](https://gundigest.com/handguns/personal-defense/biofire-smart-gun-review)** > > Protected by biometrics, the new Biofire Smart Gun appears to be the first of its kind and offers both security and fast access. Nope- many people would like an effective smart gun. > [@Loach](#): > > The Biofire has several things going against it in my opinion. Yes, but it is getting closer. That is a Good Thing. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > And it turned out that the one feature in common between all the models subject to this issue was that the brake pedal and the gas pedal felt similar. > > So it was driver error. > > Except it wasn’t, really. It was a systematic problem with the ergonomics of the cars. Right Toyota tried to claim it was all driver error, but - [Sudden unintended acceleration - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration#:~:text=After%20this%20incident%2C%20Toyota%20conducted,potential%20to%20cause%20pedal%20entrapment). _After this incident, Toyota conducted seven recalls related to unintended acceleration from September 2009 to March 2010. These recalls amounted to approximately 10 million vehicles and mostly switched out all-weather mats and carpet covers that had the potential to cause pedal entrapment._ So, it wasnt anything electronic, it was the mats and carpets in some cases, and poor gas petal design. Driver error in others, sure. > **[Toyota reaches $1.2 billion settlement to end probe of accelerator problems](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/toyota-reaches-12-billion-settlement-to-end-criminal-probe/2014/03/19/5738a3c4-af69-11e3-9627-c65021d6d572_story.html)** > > Justice: Toyota intentionally concealed information about safety issues. _Toyota Motor lied to regulators, Congress and the public for years about the sudden acceleration of its vehicles, a deception that caused the world’s largest automaker on Wednesday to be hit with a $1.2 billion Justice Department fine._ _Prosecutors say Toyota’s efforts to conceal the problem and protect its corporate image led to a series of fatalities that could have been prevented. The settlement, which amounts to more than a third of Toyota’s 2013 profit, is being called the largest criminal penalty imposed on a car company in U.S. history._ _Toyota says in the settlement that it misled Americans by making deceptive statements about the safety problems that caused its vehicles to speed up uncontrollably, a stark admission for a company that has built its brand on safety and reliability._ _Early on, Toyota suggested that driver error was to blame, saying that some people may have hit the gas when they meant to hit the brake. Even after issuing recalls to address problematic floor mats that in some cases pinned down accelerators, the company hid a flawed gas pedal design that it knew did the same thing, according to documents accompanying the agreement._ > [@Lumpy](#): > > Workable smart guns get introduced. Half an hour later the first “how to crack a smart gun” videos appear on YouTube. Yep. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The locking mechanisms in most bedside gun safes and trigger locks can be bypassed with pretty simple procedures and improvised tools. Right, but their purpose is to keep the kids out, not professional robbers- who, after all, could just steal the whole gun safe (those small bedside biometric gun safes are not that big or heavy). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/55 "2024-03-25T20:27:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, it wasnt anything electronic, it was the mats and carpets in some cases, and poor gas petal design. Driver error in others, sure. That’s a rather biased article. In many cases, it WAS user error, Toyota wasn’t lying. It’s just that the gas pedal and brake pedal felt similar, making user error easy. In the same way, guns are frankly too easy to use, and there’s an enormous amount of “user error” in the use of firearms in the US. User error that better technology could possibly mitigate. That’s the point of “smart guns”. I haven’t researched enough to have an opinion as to whether the current iteration of smart guns actually works to reduce user error. But it’s a huge problem, and it’s awfully easy to see why there is interest in solving it. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2024, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/56 "2024-03-25T23:39:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Precisely 100 is a realistic standard. The chance of a regulation revolver or pistol failing to operate is down less than 1%. But what percent of the time the gun is grabbed away and used on the owner? I cannot find that percent generally, but linked to a reasonable study showing it is 10 percent of the police gunshot deaths. I cannot find a similar percent for the general public, but I’d think the police have more training to prevent this. I read the 2023 [Bloomberg article](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-04-13/smart-gun-maker-biofire-hopes-to-sell-a-safer-handgun?embedded-checkout=true) you linked. The author was testing a pre-production unit but did not encounter failures: > [@](#): > > During two target sessions earlier this year at the Colorado headquarters and range of [Biofire Technologies Inc.](https://biofire.io/), the gun I selected from a table recognized me without an appreciable delay each time I picked it up. I let off several rounds, and the weapon felt just like many of the handguns I’ve fired in the past, delivering a light kick. Other users registered for permission to use the gun had the same experience, whereas nothing happened when people who hadn’t registered pulled the trigger. On the whole, the target practice confirmed that the smart gun worked as billed—and that I still have mediocre aim. This in your link shows a gun enthusiast setting impossible standards for acceptance that could never be met in a test, as this criteria is virtually untestable: > [@](#): > > You have to convince me that the kind of person who leaves a loaded gun out in the house will be the same person that selects a smart gun instead of a Glock The kind of person who, on rare occasion, leaves a loaded gun out in the house? As in – anyone with ADD? Anyone who ever becomes distracted and makes a mistake it is important not to make? Anyone who will recognize the first day they experience mild dementia and immediately swear off guns? Sounds like 99 percent then need a smart gun (while 99 percent are also sure they do not). > [@Folly](#): > > New Jersey at least realized that it backfired (cough) badly and back in 2019 amended the law to only be required as an option in gun stores once it becomes available. New Jersey legislators caved in to gun owning voters who have forgotten gun safety errors they likely made at least several times in the past and think gun tragedies can only happen to other people. BioFire is still both expensive and pre-production, which makes perfect sense since gun stores are boycotted if they try to sell a smart gun. As a result, even if they do ever ship, the volume will be too low to get prices down. Without a new gun owner culture, it is hard to see this changing. ---
**Author:** ![ColdBrew50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@ColdBrew50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdBrew50)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/57 "2024-03-26T01:40:35Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > As in – anyone with ADD? Anyone who ever becomes distracted and makes a mistake it is important not to make? Anyone who will recognize the first day they experience mild dementia and immediately swear off guns? Perhaps, as I said, such a device would be desirable for those with neurological trauma who are incapable of controlling either their mental states or their physical weapon. A slightly less tech-bro fantasy of constraining these defectives might include more rigorous physiological and psychological testing as a condition of firearm ownership. More reliable? Perhaps not, but there is precedent, however unlikely to succeed, instead of worshipping at the altar of some unknown, untested “tech.” Vide, self-driving cars. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/58 "2024-03-26T02:05:29Z")
> [@ColdBrew50](#): > > Perhaps, as I said, such a device would be desirable for those with neurological trauma who are incapable of controlling either their mental states or their physical weapon. People are not easily classified, and if advances in neurology and psychiatry ever make that no longer true, gun owners would refuse to be tested. Most people are responsible much of the time but make more mistakes than they admit. My father in law was by any reasonable standards a model of self-control. That’s what his friends would have told you. And, by and large, I think that’s a fact. But after he died, his grandchildren had no problem telling us where his gun safe was, and where several guns not in the safe were. > [@ColdBrew50](#): > > Vide, self-driving cars. What a smart gun needs to do is orders of ,magnitude simpler than a self-driving car. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/59 "2024-03-30T13:16:02Z")
So let’s just not try to make the world less murdery… ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283/60 "2024-03-30T15:58:28Z")
People complain that 3/4 or more of the TSA’s rules are “security theater”: precautions which are outdated or ineffective. There are endless proposals for gun safety that are more or less security theater. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-these-smart-guns/999283.md?page=4)