What do you think about Unions?

I work for management and I hate unions. They interfere with the prompt completion of work with whining complaints and work slow downs and stoppages because they want more of the profits for themselves. They are just gangs of greedy extortionists interfering with the right of good employers to get affordable labor. They are just a bunch of communists with no regard for the owners of the company.

*Happy Lendervedder *, So if a union member votes against a strike, he doesn’t have to honor it? So if a non-union member doesn’t like what he’s getting paid, he’s forced to continue to work the job for the rest of his life? So if union members don’t like how things are going, they can immediately recall their leadership and not still be bound by any agreements negotiated by that faulty leadership, or are they locked into the bad deal for the remainder of the contract?

Sorry, it just sounds to me like you’re preaching ideals instead of actualities. Quite simply, you should be paid what your skills are worth, and the free market does a good job of addressing that without the help of unions.

-lv

If the leadership is truly incompetent, oftentimes there are ways to get them out (depending on the bylaws and/or constitution).

And most, if not all, things negotiated by the leadership must be voted upon by the rank and file.

So if you didn’t vote for George W. Bush, he isn’t your president? If you vote against a school board millage, you don’t have to pay the additional property taxes if it passes?

Not sure what you mean here. Why would he be forced to stay if he doesn’t like what he’s getting paid? Apples and oranges.

I’m not preaching anything. I could just as easily argue the side of management on why unions are bad. I chose not to here, simply because I’m more pro-labor than anti.

Historically, the mindset of management has been to turn a profit no matter what the cost-- even if that meant paying shit wages, not spending the extra cash to make the workplace safer, not offering benefits, forced OT, long work weeks, etc.

Historically, the mindset of workers has been to get as much as possible for themselves with as little work as possible, and naturally have safety in the workplace. Who wouldn’t like to make $40 an hour for pushing a broom, with a 30 hour work week, have a 2 hour lunch, get full insurance coverage, etc.?

But because of unions, we have a relatively happy medium somewhere between management’s wants and the workers’ wants. Both sides still want more, and both sides still think of the other as the devil. But because of the strength of organized workers in the 1930s, we have the Wagner Act of 1935. Take that away, you take away the right to organize, and you eliminate the NLRB (which also is there to protect management). And if that happened now, don’t tell me that corporations wouldn’t take advantage of the situation. They would.

Hell, I know unions aren’t perfect. I saw plenty of shitheads taking advantage of their situation within the union when I was there.

As far as the free market thing goes, union workers are still only getting paid what their labor is worth to the market. If one union concedes to a pay cut (as UAW Chrysler did in the early 80s), there will be a drop in wages across the board (as was then seen at UAW Ford and UAW GM). Obviously if a group of workers is asking for $25/hour, and management feels it’s not worth it, they will tell them to kindly go fudge themselves.
A free market is not compromised by unions.

Happy

I like them on my hamburger.

They make a good soup too.

  • hang on…*

I am an pro-union conservative - it is my only real break with the conservative party. I think that the workers have a right to organize themselves if they wish and negotiate with the company as a group. I think power should rest with the smallest group it effects which in this case would be the workers. Also it gives the workers additional recourse when there are unsafe working conditions.

That said, I don’t think gov’t workers should be allowed to unionize since the taxpayers have to pay the salary under threat of imprisonment.

Either you were lucky in your choice of government agencies, or I hear about more of the unlucky people than you do. I am a union member working in a state agency (and before this job, I worked for a city agency).I’ve never needed the union to defend me from disciplinary action, and in fact I believe I could do that successfully myself- given a contract setting out working conditions, disciplinary processes etc. And that’s why I want a union- to negotiate a contract, so that I know what to expect. I doubt very much that my state is going to individually negotiate with thousands of employees,and it also isn’t going to pay a high enough salary to induce me to work under private sector,non-unionized conditions. Thinking of the last few fights my union has been involved in:

  • the state attempting to treat the same people as either salaried or hourly according what benefits the state (ongoing) If you work overtime you get no extra pay, but if you leave early you have to use vacation time or have your pay docked. (ongoing fight)
- one particular agency deciding to close on the day after Thankgiving (neither a legal holiday nor a day designated as a holiday in the contract) and forcing employees to use their vacation time (union stopped it)

 - an agency requiring employees to be on call 24/7, but not  paying the on-call pay provided in the contract (union got the employees the back pay, after which the agency decided they didn't need those people on call)

  -an agency requiring that officers extraditing prisoners make trips in one day by car, that according to the agency's written policy, should have either involved an overnight stay or a flight. (this was a safety issue, and the union won)

Except for the first example, none of these issues would be covered by a law.In a non-contract enviornment,the employees have only the choice of doing it, or leaving with the job. But they also, in at least some cases, have the option of negotiating a salary before starting the job, when conditions change, or when they feel they deserve a raise. I can’t imagine a state agency negotiating salary with each individual employee hired. If there were no unions, I expect that the state would still have specified salaries (or ranges) for each particular job, just as my state has specified ranges for the non-union management positions. No matter how effective a manager is, he or she will not get any more money than a less effective manager with the same amount of state service.

When I was young, my dad was a truck driver, and a member of the teamsters union. He had to pay a goodly amount of union dues, which were stolen by people like the late Jimmy Hoffa. Much of his dues went to the mafia, who built the notorious La Costa resort in California. My dad wouyld be busting his ass, only to see the friends of the local president sleeping on the job! The Teamsters were totallu corrupt for years…under Frank Fitzsimmons, the Mafia had an open line to the union treasury! When a few (very corageous) local leaders tried to reform things , they were threatened with being murdered!
Later, when I was in college. I had to join a union (Hotel and restaurant Workers) in order to get a job at a local restaurant. It was the same story-you paid dues into an organization that gave you nothing back! And if you compalined…some greaser would “have a talk” with you…usually you kept your mouth shut after such a talk!
Yes, Unions are OK, except when they become corrupt…and reforming them (once the Mafia takes hold) is almost impossible!

I’m not anti-union in the sense that I think they shouldn’t exist… but I think many unions take “non-issues” and make them issues when they are looking for leverage.

And I partly blame the pilot union at my last job for shutting down the airline. (The trucking/freight forwarding contingents never missed a day, they just contracted out their airlift to (non-union) contract airlines.) 800 people lost their jobs (300 of them pilots, the rest non-union. This particular pilot’s union (ALPA if anyone cares) has a stated policy of “jacking up the table one leg at a time” which means that with every new contract they negotiate they try to get one more benefit than they’ve ever gotten before so they can use it as precedent in future negotiations. So major commercial carrier in a boom year or middling cargo company in a recession, they aren’t looking at the worker’s situation (and seniority…and employability…let’s face it, most 50 year old freightdogs who’ve been flying cargo dc10’s for 15 years would already be working for a major if they could), they are just bulldozing ahead to try to increase the profession’s overall pay/benefit scale.

It is possible to price yourself out of a market, or your company’s niche in the market, and I think unions rarely chose to recognize that, and always assume that with “the big bad company” there is “big hidden money”. Which isn’t always the case… coughWorldcomcough

Substitute the word “Government” for “Union” above and is still nearly all true. Yet there’s probably not one American who wouldn’t admit that part of the agenda for an elected official is guarenteeing their continued employment as an elected official.

What government person is going to get elected then declare their department really has no value and they plan on shutting it down and returning to the private sector.

Part of the job of the Union is the continuance of the Union. They will manipulate their members to this purpose.

I Love unions!

For a start, they’re tasty. They come in so many varieties: red, white, yellow, Spanish…
They’re good in almost any food: on burgers, chicken, fish, there’s soup, dip, and more! Sometimes I even eat them raw, like an apple!
They’re very versatile, and they’ve got layers (Layers! Like an ogre!)
And–what?
Ooooh…Unions.

[Emily Litella] Never mind. [/Emily Litella]

Unions make me cry:(

I think Casdave needs to understand that Unions in Europe are very much different then in the USA. I have a cousin who works in Ireland in a Union and he says that if a worker is lazy, and doesn’t do their job, its very easy to get them fired in the Union, since they want to protect their name. I think that you have to look at what the unions are for be it IT workers or Garbage persons. In what people would call “blue collar” work, unions can be quite helpful and are needed, but for my Brother working in IT, they are quite a pain in the butt, and hated.

Well, when my company decided to offload me to another company in the organisation, a process which involved major changes to my contract (holidays, notice periods, overtime …). I was damn glad I was a member of the union. I knew that to refuse the move (which I coudl have done) would have seen me lose my job as there wouldn’t actually have been any work for me to do at the old company (they were in the process of downsizing anyway). So instead of me rambling like an idiot infront of my old boss, I got an expert from the union who knew exactly what he was talking about, knew exactly what my rights were and negotiated a deal which I was happy with.

I have no doubt in my mind that if I had done the negotiation myself I would have come off worse. I am a computer programmer, not a negotiator.

I’m of two minds on this issue. I personally am a bright guy, a fairly hard worker, and enjoy a good working relationship with my immediate supervisor. As a result, I am better paid than many of my coworkers, and am afforded many fringe benefits not given some of my associates. So a union probably would not help me personally. In fact, as a state employee, my complex (I work for a university) has thousands of no-good work slackers who need a serious thumping in order to do their damn jobs, and still don’t do them well. So in that regard, a union that protects such employees would be against my own self-interest.

On the other hand, as a closet libertarian, I have the notion that employers should have a fair amount of latitude in their hiring and firing decisions. Since that would place a lot of power in the employers hands, it seems only reasonable and fair that employees have bargaining power as well. Do they want more money and better benefits? Sure, and whats wrong with that? Doesn’t everyone?

Anyway, my workplace recently won the right to organize, and they voted to do so by a 5 to 1 margin, so its a done deal. The state was never able to fire anyone before, either.

I have a follow-up question for those who think unions are a way for workers to get paid more than fair market value for their labor: have you added more value to your employer every time you have gotten a raise or promotion? And was the added value proportional to the wage increase?

I was raised by strong pro-union parents - we went to rallies, knew all the union songs by heart, supported boycotts, etc.

My personal experience with unions:
[ul]
[li] experienced, qualified librarians in my town were all fired when the local library unionized. They didn’t qualify for union membership, and the union had them ousted.[/li][li] my first job was unionized and I saw all the things mentioned already: lazy workers protected, good workers subtly (sometimes not so subtly) discouraged from remaining, union dues collected regardless of membership, employees encouraged to think of their jobs as a struggle against evil management rather than doing business, knee jerk union rejection of any management proposal regardless of how innocuous, and the final straw: a strike scheduled for Sunday - the day it would have the least impact on the business or union officials, but would lose workers 2 1/2 times pay.[/li][li] protecting senior union members from actual work was a consistent part of every unionized job I had. This had usually nothing to do with job description - two of us would have exactly the same job, but the shitty and/or dangerous tasks would be reserved for the worker with less seniority.[/li][li] and finally, I have never received a single benefit from being a union member. In fact, it was only after I started working at non-union jobs that my salary and opportunities started to take off. [/li][/ul]
I suppose I should give my parents the benefit of the doubt and allow that unions had their place historically, and maybe in less developed countries or for unskilled workers they still serve a purpose, but as far as I’m concerned they no longer have a place in my life.

I guess I don’t really believe in unions. If you don’t like the conditions at your present job, you can always vote with your feet. I’ve left jobs where I felt the company was treating me unfairly, where the pay was poor, etc. I do feel like the owner of the company has the to set the terms of the employment. If you don’t like it, leave. Having said that, the company I work for gives me 1 sick day a month,two weeks of vacation a year my first year, slightly more than competitive pay, a on-site massage therapist every Friday, an on-site fitness center and other perks. If I need to take a couple hours off to take my dog to the vet, that’s fine. I don’t need to take personal time. They make sure that their working conditions are good because they want to attract good employees. They know if they want people to stay, they have to pony up.

StG

People work for money. If you want loyalty, buy a dog.

Happy, you’re talking in circles.

This is what I was referring to with my “have to work there forever” line. If you don’t like what you’re getting paid, you’re free to leave for greener pastures, it isn’t “tough shit”. But then you go and give an example that threatens your own point:

So now, you have some employees who would likely to be making close to what they were making (because they are good, hard working employees and the management wants to keep them) get a pay cut so people in the union who would be fired if management had their way can continue to get a pay check. Sure, they had a vote for it, but the law of the bell curve states that the “best” people are in the minority, so the “best” people have to take a pay cut that they didn’t deserve. AND if they didn’t like it, “tough shit”. AND, since all shops that require there skills have union contracts, they can’t even leave the company for one that will pay them what they’re worth. Tell me that that is better for a good worker.

There’s nothing here that changes my mind, unions are a method of taking money from people who deserve it and giving it to people who don’t. But Happy, I gotta respect somebody who just sees a good arguement and decides to pick a side.

A few other points: amanset, you likely could have hired a lawyer to handle the negotiations for you for much less than the sum of your union dues in your career. Emilio, I make what I’m worth, based on the scale set by the company. There are people who do similar jobs to mine and make 3/4th what I do, but I accomplish much more than them. And yes, each year I work I get new experiences, take on new responsibilities, and generally contribute more to my company’s bottom line. That’s why my company gives me raises, until they start being stupid and issueing across the board pay freezes. At which time, I’m allowed to shop my resume around to see what my market value is.

-lv

good morning friends,

humor me with my rather long anti-union rant.

[rant]
in the early seventies, construction was moving along pretty well hwere. i decided that carpentry would be a good way to make a living, so i applied and was accepted by the local carpenter’s union. they assigned me to a class as a first year apprentice, and sent me to my first union construction job. so far, so good.

once the large job was over, back to the hall for re-assignment. this began a cycle of smaller companies and shorter jobs with longer periods of no work between them. eventually, the work dried up all together.

the year i signed up, the electricians took 25 apprentices, the plumbers took about 30 and the carpenters took 500. (essentially anyone they could get to sign up. it sounds like an exagguration, but towards the end, i was #1134 down from the top of the out of work list. (still paying union dues)

i filled in my time working wherever i could, hoping for better times, when a friend told me there were plenty of carpenter jobs available in the home building industry. the only problem was that this was non-union work. being out of work, i jumped at the chance. (still hoping for better times and still paying dues)

one fine afternoon, at lunch time, a business agent from the union showed up on a recruiting trip. when he saw me he took me aside and told me that working a non-union job was a violation, and that he could pull my card (get me thrown out of the union) for this. i am pretty sure he was soliciting a bribe, but it had the opposite effect. i took my card out of my wallet, tore it in half and told him just where he could insert it.

it took threat of legal action to get the union to let go of my escrow account (money deposited for vacation pay and pension)

for six months after i finally got shut of them, i would get a letter every month telling me that the union would reinstate me if i would just pay up my back dues. later, while doing taxes i added up my pay slips for union jobs during my five year association with the union, and compared this amount to what i had paid out in dues for those years.

in five years, i lost money. i paid out more in dues and fees to the union than i earned from union jobs.

the carter recession tanked even non-union carpentry for a long period. i took a job with a small fire extinguisher company while waiting for my trade to bounce back. i have been there 24 years now. no union. i am well treated, make pretty decent money and can go directly to the owner of the company with any concerns.

[/rant]

thanks for listening.

Where I work, the hourly workers do not punch a clock. They have an indoor, climate controlled smoking room larger than the cafeteria that is stocked with the latest issues of all the pop-press mags and newspapers. The workers get generous breaks beyond the state minimum, they get paid for their overtime, get competitive wages, a strong benefits/pension/401k/vacations/holidays/sick days package and a machine in the cafe that dispenses discounted packages of cigarettes. The management seems fairly even-handed in their dealings with the workers.

Most of the workers probably realise that if they organised, they probably would: lose some of these benefits, might not gain anything at all and would certainly lose the dues deducted from their checks . At least a few could figure out that their jobs require no education, no special skills requiring more than on-the-job training and that organisation would lead to their jobs most likely being shipped to Mexico.

To greatly oversimplify, if management is smart they will treat their workers well and make organisation look like a net loss to the workers. IMHO it is only where management has abused the workers that unionisation has truly succeeded.