# What do you think are acceptable exit conditions for \[the Ukraine\] war? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 22, 2023, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189 "2023-02-22T01:41:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/81 "2023-02-22T22:26:21Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Accusing me of being an appeaser or peacenik is hilarious. Literally no one in this thread except for you has used either of these terms or has made any comparable accusation. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/82 "2023-02-22T22:26:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I think demanding complete surrender and war crimes tribunals ends with Putin hiding in a bunker and potentially firing off nukes. #3 has a risk of that, but perhaps not as great, but would result in huge extra loss of life on all sides. #1 is unacceptable to everyone on our side. It’s not “complete surrender” like we had in WWII. In this context surrender only means “Russia leaves Ukraine.” We can (and should) go after war crimes, but Putin himself will not be in any danger from that unless he vacations abroad. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/83 "2023-02-22T22:29:20Z")
To @Sam_Stone and anyone else saying that we need to prevent World War III, the problem is that we can’t prevent World War III. If Putin wants to launch nukes, he will, and we can’t stop him. If he launches nukes, it won’t be because we provoked him; it’ll be solely and entirely because he decided to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/84 "2023-02-22T22:39:59Z")
I don’t think @Sam_Stone is an appeaser or peacenik, but I do think that he is predisposed to be critical of whatever foreign policy decisions a Democrat White House would make. There is no easy choice to be made here, but whatever is decided will be ripe for second guessing. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/85 "2023-02-22T23:19:00Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Literally no one in this thread except for you has used either of these terms or has made any comparable accusation. > > Stranger I assumed the Neville Chamberlain 'Peace in Our Time" picture was aimed at me. > [@Chronos](#): > > To @Sam_Stone and anyone else saying that we need to prevent World War III, the problem is that we can’t prevent World War III. If Putin wants to launch nukes, he will, and we can’t stop him. If he launches nukes, it won’t be because we provoked him; it’ll be solely and entirely because he decided to do so. Huh? He’ll either do it or not, and we’re just spectators? We can"t influence that decision in any way? > [@Chingon](#): > > I don’t think @Sam_Stone is an appeaser or peacenik, but I do think that he is predisposed to be critical of whatever foreign policy decisions a Democrat White House would make. I have fully supported everything this administration has done in Ukraine up to the point where they started threatening war crimes tribunals and putting America front and center in the war. I think it’s a mistake to turn this into Putin vs America, and it’s exactly what Putin wants to scare the people at home into believing that the war is an existential threat to them. I have had no problem with the arms and financial aid. I have much bigger problems with many on the right over this. The pro-Putin talking points coming from some of them is nauseating, and also plays into Putin’s hands. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/86 "2023-02-22T23:26:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I assumed the Neville Chamberlain 'Peace in Our Time" picture was aimed at me. If you are not endorsing, _1. Kiev makes a deal to allow Russia to keep some small gains and promises not to join NATO in exchange for peace._ (which I don’t think you are) then how could it be aimed at you? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/87 "2023-02-22T23:27:14Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Huh? He’ll either do it or not, and we’re just spectators? We can"t influence that decision in any way? If Putin is subject to rational incentives, then he already won’t launch nukes. To even ask the question is to presume that he’s not responding to rational incentives. Further, if he were to nuke anyone, presumably it would be Kyiv. And yet, the Ukrainians think that all of those things that might putatively “provoke” Putin are all worth the risk. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/88 "2023-02-22T23:34:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I assumed the Neville Chamberlain 'Peace in Our Time" picture was aimed at me. You may assume what you please but @crowmanyclouds’ post in no way indicated a specific reference to you or anyone and was a general observation that appeasement to aggressive autocrats is not successful in preventing war. And again, literally nobody responding to this thread used the terms “peacenik” or “appeaser” except you. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I have fully supported everything this administration has done in Ukraine up to the point where they started threatening war crimes tribunals and putting America front and center in the war. Neither of these claims are strictly true. The statements made by Vice President Harris (and previously by President Biden) have suggested that Putin should be held to account for the war crimes committed by Russian troops in this invasion but neither has ever discussed tribunals or any other legal proceedings. America is only “front and center” in the sense of being a first-among-equals member of NATO but can hardly be described as being the most aggressive in defense of Ukraine, and in fact the reluctance of the United States to more openly support sending advanced military weapons to Ukraine has been a bit of a sticking point among several of the NATO Alliance members who feel more immediately threatened by Putin’s aggression. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/89 "2023-02-22T23:51:15Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I have fully supported everything this administration has done in Ukraine up to the point where they started threatening war crimes tribunals and putting America front and center in the war. This isn’t quite accurate. A minimal search shows: > [@Russia may be about to invade Ukraine. {Russia has invaded as of Feb 24-2022}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/201): > > Biden’s actions make him look far more like a Putin stooge than Trump ever did. He waived sanctions to allow the Nord 2 pipeline from Russia to Europe, while today refusing to support a pipeline from Israel to Europe which would limit Putin’s ability to shut off European power for political reasons. Totally baffling. Then he came out and basically said America would look the other way at a ‘limited’ excursion into Ukraine. > > No, I don’t think he’s a Russian Stooge. He’s just Joe Biden - a person who has been wrong on almost every foreign affairs issue in my lifetime. He was against the first gulf war, for the second one, against the raid that killed Bin Laden, for the toppling of Ghadaffi and the mess in Syria, and presided over the disastrous pullout in Afghanistan. So he doesn’t have to be a stooge to do things this dumb ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/90 "2023-02-22T23:56:14Z")
But to be fair, I’ll let you post where you mentioned your support for the current administration’s foreign policies. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/91 "2023-02-23T01:06:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > [@Jackmannii](#): > > > > Where have Kamala Harris or anyone else in the administration demanded that Putin be put on trial or killed? > > From your own link: > > > [@](#): > > > > Saturday. > > > > “In the case of Russia’s actions in Ukraine we have examined the evidence, we know the legal standards, and there is no doubt: these are crimes against humanity,” Harris, a former prosecutor, said at the Munich Security Conference. > > > > " **And I say to all those who have perpetrated these crimes, and to their superiors who are complicit in these crimes, you will be held to account.** ” > > Bolding mine. How else are we supposed to read that? What message is Putin supposed to take from that? Nothing in there singles out Putin, and the remainder of what I quoted indicates that it would be difficult if not impossible to bring anyone on the Russian side to trial. So your contention that Putin will feel desperate enough to launch nukes seems…bizarre. I did use the term Russia appeaser to describe many on the right in reference to this conflict, but did not so characterize Sam. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/92 "2023-02-23T01:10:58Z")
1. Russia remove all its armed forces from Ukraine’s territory _to include withdrawing from the Crimea_. 2. Putin resign as president of the Russian federation and submit to trial for his war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/93 "2023-02-23T01:11:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I have fully supported everything this administration has done in Ukraine up to the point where they started threatening war crimes tribunals and putting America front and center in the war I’d be interested in your take on the Canadian approach to all this. Your country doesn’t want war crimes punished? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/94 "2023-02-23T01:15:03Z")
“You will be held to account” could mean all sorts of things. It could mean trial by the US, or by an international tribunal… or it could mean “by the history books”, or that karma will come due, or that some usurper will sense weakness and overthrow him, or that he’ll go to Hell at the Last Judgement. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/95 "2023-02-23T01:28:27Z")
I’d like the kidnapped children and adults returned. That’s a big condition for me. Withdraw to pre-2014 borders. Pay reparations on a schedule. Signigicant demilitarization zone established. Russians deal with Putin. Sanctions decrease as reparations are made. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/96 "2023-02-23T01:48:45Z")
I was talking about the administration’s support for the war. What I disagreed with in that post was the decision to waive sanctions in order to allow Nordstream 2. I said I opposed that in this very thread. I also said that his ‘limited excursion might be okay’ talk was helping to trigger a war. In other words, I was criticising him for appeasing Putin, giving him leverage over Western Europe, and for hinting that America might look the other way if Putin did just a little bit of invading. In my opinion, which I still hold, Biden was making war more likely, not less, at that time. When the war actually started and the Biden administration committed to helping Ukraine, I supported it fully. But yes, waiving sanctions to allow Nordstream 2 to go ahead was a bad mistake which made war more likely, as was the tepid answer to the threat of an invasion - the kind of ambiguous answer April Glaspie gave Saddam Hussein, which convinced him America wasn’t interested in defending Kuwait. Does anyone now think that allowing Nordstream 2 was a good idea? ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/97 "2023-02-23T01:54:06Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I think it’s a mistake to turn this into Putin vs America, and it’s exactly what Putin wants to scare the people at home into believing that the war is an existential threat to them. I’m sure that’s what Putin wants the Russian people to think. Putin’s problem is that it isn’t true. As counter examples, consider some US presidents who in a certain sense could be said to have been defeated by a country the United States was at war with. LBJ was basically defeated by the North Vietnamese. Jimmy Carter by Iran. John McCain by Afghanistan and Iraq. None of those losses were existential threats to the United States. Putin losing the presidency of Russia is similarly not an existential threat to Russia as a nation. Putin knows that, and my guess is that this is the reason he hasn’t given the order to launch the nukes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/98 "2023-02-23T01:55:29Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > As counter examples, consider some US presidents who in a certain sense could be said to have been defeated by a country the United States was at war with. LBJ was basically defeated by the North Vietnamese. Jimmy Carter by Iran. John McCain by Afghanistan and Iraq. …what timeline are you posting from? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/99 "2023-02-23T01:55:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > “You will be held to account” could mean all sorts of things. It could mean trial by the US, or by an international tribunal… or it could mean “by the history books”, or that karma will come due, or that some usurper will sense weakness and overthrow him, or that he’ll go to Hell at the Last Judgement. When it’s prefaced with a claim of war crimes, “You will be held accountable” is pretty clear. It may not mean swinging fro ,a rope, but the idea that she might have meant “One day Karma will get you,” or “The history books will not be kind to you” is a real stretch. It was a threat and a promise to make ‘those responsible’ pay for war crimes after the war. The only payment I kmow of for genocide or the mass slaughter of civilians is execution. Whether they actually will or not is another question, but it was certainly delivered as a threat. Or more likely, it was delivered as red meat to a base that wants Putin punished any way possible. If so, they should have paid more attention to how that would be received by the Kremlin. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189/100 "2023-02-23T02:10:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > When the war actually started and the Biden administration committed to helping Ukraine, I supported it fully. I don’t recall you ever supporting a foreign policy decision made by a Democratic White House. Perhaps you could link to a post of yours where you do? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-are-acceptable-exit-conditions-for-the-ukraine-war/980189.md?page=6)