# What do you think is the most insane, collective human event in history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776 "2012-04-14T19:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/81 "2012-04-17T03:22:05Z")
\*\*I usually try to avoid quibbling over terms, l but logic is an exception because of its position \*\* \*\*at the foundation of intellectually rigorous discourse. \*\* **This is the first relevant google hit for “bad logic”:** [Terminology of Logic](http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/goodbadlogic.htm) (from link, emphasis added): > [@](#): > > … deductive arguments with good logic are those in which the conclusion must be true if the premises are true. **We call deductive arguments with good logic valid** arguments… > > By contrast, **deductive arguments with bad logic** are those in which the arguer claims the premises guarantee the conclusion, but the arguer is mistaken: it is possible after all for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. Such arguments **are called invalid**. > > … **Inductive arguments with good logic** are those in which the premises make the conclusion likely. Such arguments **are usually called strong**. > > **Inductive arguments with bad logic are called weak**. Weak arguments are those in which the arguer claims the premises make the conclusion likely, but the arguer is mistaken: the conclusion isn’t really likely. > > Notice that in all this discussion of good and bad logic, we have said NOTHING about whether the premises are in fact true. That’s because **an argument can have good logic, strictly speaking, even if its premises are false**. Now, I am not saying you should accept arguments with false premises. Such arguments are defective, of course, and should be rejected. > > **If a deductive argument is valid AND has all true premises, the argument is said to be sound.** > > **If an inductive argument is strong AND has all true premises, the argument is said to be cogent.** \*\*Every single reference in this thread to the “logic” of the Holocaust is a gross violation of the requirements \*\* **of sound, cogent logic.** \*\*It is to be regretted that anyone here could be so oblivious to these violations as to feel compelled to take \*\* **any action in their defence.** ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/82 "2012-04-17T05:00:44Z")
It’s simple Blooean Logic, people. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/83 "2012-04-17T07:09:59Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > \*\*Every single reference in this thread to the “logic” of the Holocaust is a gross violation of the requirements \*\* > **of sound, cogent logic.** Your own citation says “an argument can have good logic, strictly speaking, even if its premises are false.”. The statement you originally argued with says pretty much the same. You’re tilting at windmills. > [@](#): > > \*\*It is to be regretted that anyone here could be so oblivious to these violations as to feel compelled to take \*\* > **any action in their defence.** Nobody here is defending the Nazis. You’re imagining it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/84 "2012-04-17T07:24:13Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Are we judging this by horrificness or silliness, because I was going to suggest the Dutch tulip mania. Nobody really got hurt very much, but oh my was it silly! You could include the spice - in particular, Nutmeg - trade which shared many of the same features/entities and happened in (well, and leading up to) more or less the same historical period. Differing in that people _did_ get hurt. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/85 "2012-04-17T08:15:08Z")
I’d nominate the reaction of the US government to the terrorist attacks of 9/11. Rather than make reasonable changes to prevent further hijackings and hunt down the handful of religious extremists responsible the “most powerful” nation on Earth spent trillions of dollars and underwent a societal change betraying national ideals combating some religious fanatics living in caves. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/86 "2012-04-17T10:49:41Z")
One could make a case for much of the economic thinking behind the 20th/21st century. All the more insane as we don’t actually seem to have learned anything at all (though some schools of thought suggest there is nothing meaningful we\* can\* learn) But that is by the by. Just wanted to chip in on the logic of the holocaust. If you want to unpick the reasoning a little further then you could do worse than read up on the “Wannsee Conference” or watch the film “Conspiracy”. It covers a lot of relevant ground and in particular it shows the internal logic at work in the minds of the Nazi hierarchy. It reads and plays just like any number of business meetings you may be involved in. Logistics, practicalities, costs, technology, resources etc. etc. And it is all the more horrific for it. Truly evidence for “The banality of evil” ---
**Author:** ![Sampsiceramos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Sampsiceramos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampsiceramos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/87 "2012-04-17T11:32:34Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > \*\*I usually try to avoid quibbling over terms, l but logic is an exception because of its position \*\* > \*\*at the foundation of intellectually rigorous discourse. \*\* > > **This is the first relevant google hit for “bad logic”:** > > [Terminology of Logic](http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/goodbadlogic.htm) > > (from link, emphasis added): > > \*\*Every single reference in this thread to the “logic” of the Holocaust is a gross violation of the requirements \*\* > **of sound, cogent logic.** > > \*\*It is to be regretted that anyone here could be so oblivious to these violations as to feel compelled to take \*\* > **any action in their defence.** You would do well to acquire at least a rudimentary understanding of the terminology of logic before criticizing others for lacking such. The following is the most immediately available and reputable source on the subject: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valid\_argument](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valid_argument) And from the link: > [@](#): > > Validity of deduction is not affected by the truth of the premise or the truth of the conclusion. The following deduction is perfectly valid: > All fire-breathing rabbits live on Mars > All humans are fire-breathing rabbits > Therefore all humans live on Mars > The problem with the argument is that it is not sound. In order for a deductive argument to be sound, the deduction must be valid and all the premises true. So, as others have pointed out, the validity of an argument rests solely on the validity of the inference performed; the immediate truth-value of eventual premises is a non-factor. Should you not be satisfied with Wikipedia, I would suggest you read “An Introduction to Formal Logic” by Peter Smith, or any other introduction to the subject matter, which will state the exact same thing. And to reiterate the point others have been making: no-one is defending the Holocaust or its premises - they are unilaterally seen as genocidal, and by extension, insane. People are simply pointing out that the suggested argument for it is formally logically valid, **not** sound, _by virtue of its form_. This is a simple, indisputable fact, and contesting it is an inexcusable exercise in ignorance not welcome to these boards. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/88 "2012-04-17T11:56:41Z")
I’m surprised no one has mentioned [Rwanda](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide). Roughly 10% of the popluation was murdered. In 100 days :eek: ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/89 "2012-04-17T12:41:35Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Eh, about that same period, the US was wiping out its sparrow population with DDT. Yeah, but the difference was that DDT didn’t directly target the sparrows. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/90 "2012-04-17T14:39:14Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I’d nominate the reaction of the US government to the terrorist attacks of 9/11. > > Rather than make reasonable changes to prevent further hijackings and hunt down the handful of religious extremists responsible the “most powerful” nation on Earth spent trillions of dollars and underwent a societal change betraying national ideals combating some religious fanatics living in caves. You’re OK with the hunting down religious extremists, but you think fighting the religious fanatics was a mistake? How do you work that one out? (And oh yes… [caves](http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1229&bih=790&tbm=isch&tbnid=LFBqc2EIgFumcM:&imgrefurl=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/8494471/Osama-bin-Laden-the-compound-in-Abbottabad-Pakistan-where-the-al-Qaeda-leader-lived.html&docid=zf23Io6Q-JgN1M&imgurl=http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01886/compound-osama-5_1886736i.jpg&w=620&h=388&ei=L4CNT9XQIKK-0AHKx6y7Dw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=94&sig=115925826747238137365&page=1&tbnh=137&tbnw=206&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:0,i:109&tx=111&ty=70).) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/91 "2012-04-17T15:43:46Z")
Do these have to be Deadly and Short-Lived? Because I think I’d vote for the Dutch Tulip-Mania of 1637, myself (as recounted in McKay’s _Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds_). > **[Tulip mania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania)** > > Tulip mania (Dutch: tulpenmanie) was a period during the Dutch Golden Age when contract prices for some bulbs of the recently introduced and fashionable tulip reached extraordinarily high levels. The major acceleration started in 1634 and then dramatically collapsed in February 1637. It is generally considered to have been the first recorded speculative bubble or asset bubble in history. In many ways, the tulip mania was more of a then-unknown socio-economic phenomenon than a significant econo If you need sudden and deadly, the Nika Riots in Byzantium in 532, started because of disagreement over the results of a freakin’ _chariot race_ hasd anything beat for sheer waste and stupidity. You can’t even argue about any possible benefits to anyone. And it was far, far worse than any modern sports riot, with a reported 30,000 dead > **[Nika riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots)** > > The Nika riots (Greek: Στάσις τοῦ Νίκα, romanized: Stásis toû Níka), Nika revolt or Nika sedition took place against Byzantine Emperor Justinian I in Constantinople over the course of a week in 532 AD. They are often regarded as the most violent riots in the city's history, with nearly half of Constantinople being burned or destroyed and tens of thousands of people killed. > The ancient Roman and Byzantine empires had well-developed associations, known as demes, which supported the different facti... ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/92 "2012-04-17T15:48:53Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > I’m surprised no one has mentioned [Rwanda](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide). Roughly 10% of the popluation was murdered. > In 100 days :eek: Mostly with machetes. it was hand work. Women with babies strapped to their back were running from OTHER women with babies strapped to their backs wielding machetes. In this day and age. Has to be a top candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/93 "2012-04-17T16:18:17Z")
The Dutch Tulip Bubble is probably a myth, or at least greatly exaggerated. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/94 "2012-04-17T16:41:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which would be sillier-the pet rock craze or the beanie baby craze? No one buying a pet rock thought they were making an investment, therefore beanie babies win. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/95 "2012-04-17T16:45:30Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Your own citation says “an argument can have good logic, strictly speaking, even if its premises are false.”. The statement you originally argued with says pretty much the same. You’re tilting at windmills. My own citation says that logic may be “good” but not “sound”, and “sound” is the term for logic of quality. “Sound” is also the term I employed from the beginning of this discussion. I would have used some other term than “good” because “good” may convey to careless readers like you the sense that an argument is sound when it is not. I did not feel like googling for another cite using a more suitable term to make the same point. > [@Mangetout](#): > > Nobody here is defending the Nazis. You’re imagining it. Numerous people have defended Nazi crtitical thinking by defending Nazi logic. I suppose they consider themselves objective realists, or some such thing. A word that occurs to me to describe them is “sophomoric”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/96 "2012-04-17T17:01:09Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > Numerous people have defended Nazi crtitical thinking by defending Nazi logic. > > I suppose they consider themselves objective realists, or some such thing. > A word that occurs to me to describe them is “sophomoric”. **colonial** , it’s time for you to drop this hijack. I don’t think you understand what you are arguing against here, and your description of other posters is not appropriate for Great Debates. Start a new thread if you want to discuss this further. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/97 "2012-04-17T17:12:13Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The Dutch Tulip Bubble is probably a myth, or at least greatly exaggerated. A myth it is not. It’s arguably exaggerated in how widespread it was, but it certainly did occur, with ludicrous prices charged. See the wiki page I linked to. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/98 "2012-04-17T17:36:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not sure you’ve thought this all the way through. Even if Europe was sick of war, what exactly were they supposed to do about Hitler? He wasn’t sick of war at all. Yes, but that’s part of it - Hitler notoriously went through the Great War as a runner, even got himself a couple gongs for bravery IIRC. And yet he still thought another go at it was a great idea for Germany. But even if he was something of a nut, he didn’t rise to the leadership of Germany by sheer triumph of the will, pardon the pun - he had the active support of quite a few people like him, and the tacit apathy of even more. All the while preaching war, revenge and so forth. That’s what I really don’t get. It’s not so much “what was europe to do about Hitler”, but “how did Hitler happen in the first place ?” ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/99 "2012-04-17T17:37:05Z")
> [@Sampsiceramos](#): > > You would do well to acquire at least a rudimentary understanding of the terminology of logic before criticizing others for lacking such. > > The following is the most immediately available and reputable source on the subject: > [Validity (logic) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valid_argument) > > …So, as others have pointed out, the validity of an argument rests solely on the validity of the inference performed; the immediate truth-value of eventual premises is a non-factor. Should you not be satisfied with Wikipedia, I would suggest you read “An Introduction to Formal Logic” by Peter Smith, or any other introduction to the subject matter, which will state the exact same thing. Here, again, from my cite: **"If a deductive argument is valid AND has all true premises, the argument is said to be** **SOUND**." Affirming my correct use of the term “sound” And from your cite: All fire-breathing rabbits live on Mars All humans are fire-breathing rabbits Therefore all humans live on Mars The problem with the argument is that it is **NOT SOUND**. **In order for a deductive argument to be sound, the deduction must be valid and all the premises true.** So you see, your cite says exactly the same thing as mine. I did in post #20 misuse the word “valid” when I applied it to premises. I should have used the word “true”. Citation corrected the error. However, my overall point was correct: as a matter of critical thinking the Holocaust contains no SOUND logic. > [@Sampsiceramos](#): > > And to reiterate the point others have been making: no-one is defending the Holocaust **or its premises** (my emphasis- colonial) - they are unilaterally seen as genocidal, and by extension, insane. People are simply pointing out that the suggested argument for it is formally logically valid, **not** sound, _by virtue of its form_. That is not true it the case of the member, MOIDALIZE, who I chose to engage. Here is his post #21 > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > - “Those people hate us, and we hate them.” > - “Those people occupy territory that we want for ourselves.” > - “Those people dominate and enslave us.” > > Those aren’t valid premises for causing genocide? Which unambiguously approves of three premises for genocide. He is obviously using “valid” to mean “true”. In fact the first and third premises are false when applied to the Holocaust, and the deductions made from the second premise are invalid. > [@Sampsiceramos](#): > > This is a simple, indisputable fact, and contesting it is an inexcusable exercise in ignorance not welcome to these boards. If ignorance was inexcusable here then you would have been gone long ago. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776/100 "2012-04-17T17:44:34Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s what I really don’t get. It’s not so much “what was europe to do about Hitler”, but “how did Hitler happen in the first place ?” The answer to this is probably the answer to a lot of nominations in the thread, including Rwanda and my own which is that it probably wasn’t so insane to those involved. Just because someone’s motivations aren’t 100% rational from an objective point of view doesn’t make them insane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-most-insane-collective-human-event-in-history/618776.md?page=6)