# What do you think is the ultimate goal, if any, of creationists? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 7, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038 "2012-02-07T00:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/21 "2012-02-07T06:19:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > . . . None. They aren’t being converted for their benefit; they are being converted for Christianity’s benefit. It needs human minds as hosts. You might as well ask what benefit people get from contracting AIDS. Exactly. It’s a kind of “memetic warfare.” They are power-hungry, for the same reason many unintelligent tyrants are power-hungry: they want to control others, for power’s own sake. They’ll phrase it defensively. They’re protecting their children against secular humanism. But the mechanism is that of tyranny. Running stealth candidates for community office, for example, or lying about the opposition. (Just yesterday, I was listening, with much nausea, to a Christian radio show where the host was explaining, in tedious – and fallacious – detail how, under Darwinism, there can be no morals. If evolution is true, then there can be no “right and wrong.” We’ve heard this claptrap before, but they never get tired of repeating it.) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/22 "2012-02-07T10:50:58Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > People hold on to a literal interpretation of the Bible out of fear. They are afraid to question anything. Because if you doubt one thing, another one will follow. Then the whole jenga puzzle will come tumbling down and you’re left with nothing. I don’t agree with you that fear is _always_ the motivation, although I’m sure it _may_ be. I have some ultra-religious cousins, science & math teachers, no less, who I can’t say have a fear of questioning anything. But when they question anything in the religious category, their deep-seated but unfounded beliefs color their perception so strongly that any dis-confirming evidence is rationalized away. They are not bothered by this, but consider it entirely logical. I just don’t feel fear is a major factor here (unless you call it the “fear of God”.) ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/23 "2012-02-07T13:54:15Z")
I believe their goal is Complete and Total _World Prosthelytization!_ "Say, do you kneel before of after the “Muah-ha-ha-ha”? “Just fake it & throw money on the basket.” ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/24 "2012-02-07T14:59:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They are in essence the extensions of the religion that has infected them; their minds have been subverted into vectors for spreading that particular religion. They work to push their dogma for the same reason someone with an organic disease coughs & sneezes; to spread the disease that has infected them. As believers, that is their only function; to protect and spread the religion that has subsumed them into itself. That’s pretty strong language, and pretty dehumanizing. It creates an “us vs them” mentality. We’re the enlightened ones, and they are diease vectors. Yuck. But I would agree with the notion that the only purpose of a belief is to perpetuate itself. In that light, maybe we should take a closer look at our own beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/25 "2012-02-07T16:00:34Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > That’s pretty strong language, and pretty dehumanizing. It creates an “us vs them” mentality. We’re the enlightened ones, and they are diease vectors. Yuck. It is an us-versus-them situation. The creationists and similarly fervent believers are going to continue to look at unbeleivers as “them” regardless of whether or not the unbelievers in question acknowledge the division. And yes, they are disease vectors in my opinion; and yes, people who don’t buy creationism are more “enlightened”. The fact is that these people are factually wrong; hugely so. This isn’t a matter of opinion; what they believe is utter nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/26 "2012-02-07T16:08:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It is an us-versus-them situation. The creationists and similarly fervent believers are going to continue to look at unbeleivers as “them” regardless of whether or not the unbelievers in question acknowledge the division. > > And yes, they are disease vectors in my opinion; and yes, people who don’t buy creationism are more “enlightened”. The fact is that these people are factually wrong; hugely so. This isn’t a matter of opinion; what they believe is utter nonsense. I just can’t buy into this point of view anymore. It serves no one. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/27 "2012-02-07T16:11:04Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I just can’t buy into this point of view anymore. It serves no one. Acknowledging enemies as enemies serves you and the people they would like to hurt along with you. Pretending they aren’t enemies just makes you a victim. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/28 "2012-02-07T16:21:15Z")
No, calling a fellow human an enemy does not serve me in the slightest. They are merely perpetuating misguided beliefs. The best I can do is seek truth and spread it wherever I can. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/29 "2012-02-07T16:29:06Z")
To get into heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/30 "2012-02-07T16:48:01Z")
**Der Trish** is right. The " intelligent design" tenet does serve an us vs them purpose, just like any [shibboleth.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth) Where I don’t -quite- agree with **Der Thris** is that this is necessarily an enemy or antagonistic thing. it is more of a nest scent thing, like “We love the Beatles, they are Stone-fans” Or X-box vs Playstation. It is more of a nest scent thing. But granted, Playstation fans don’t try and get their beliefs taught in school. > [@](#): > > A shibboleth is a custom, principle, or belief distinguishing a particular class or group of people, especially a long-standing one regarded as outmoded or no longer important. And as for where this is headed? I think the same place where its predecessors were headed. Lamenting about the evils of birth control (pill and condoms), or the evils of women’s rights and divorce (and about one of them would lead to another), used to be the Christian thing only a few decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/31 "2012-02-07T17:30:22Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > **Der Trish** is right. The " intelligent design" tenet does serve an us vs them purpose, Sure, and by being “them”, we prove them right and feed into their notion that we really are out to get them. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/32 "2012-02-07T18:07:50Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/33 "2012-02-07T18:09:48Z")
Perhaps, but the atheists didn’t start this contamination of state and school. it started when some relis started pushing their agenda for creationism being pushed on all school curricula. If we atheists didn’t start it, I don’t think it is us who need to turn the other cheek (which is, by the way, one of the least enforced tenets of Christianity). ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/34 "2012-02-07T18:23:33Z")
You’re still thinking in terms of us vs them, and that they are somehow the enemy. What they need is being educated, not loathed. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/35 "2012-02-07T18:41:06Z")
The “ultimate goal” of creationists is to get religion into school curriculum. Minds are most malleable/moldable at an early age. Mandatory Bible study and the Lord’s Prayer are out (at least in public schools), so creationist pseudoscience is seen as an alternate foot in the door. > [@SDMBKL](#): > > …to accept “intelligent design”, one must question, "who is this intelligent agent, anyway? Patrick McGoohan? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/36 "2012-02-07T19:46:01Z")
All of this, and no mention of the Wedge strategy? > **[Wedge strategy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy)** > > The Wedge Strategy is a creationist political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Institute, the hub of the \[\[intelligent design movement\]\]. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the Wedge Document. Its goal is to change American culture by shaping public policy to reflect politically conservative fundamentalist evangelical Protestant values. The wedge metaphor is attributed to Phillip E. Johnson and depicts a metal wedge splitting a log. > Intelligen... Discovery Institute’s long-term plan for cultural change, with creationism being the “wedge” that cracks secular thinking. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/37 "2012-02-07T20:07:36Z")
I think creationists really believe what they say they believe and that God doesn’t like people saying we came from monkeys (or whatever.) Now, SOME creationists feed on this ignorance for fun and profit and they really don’t like anyone educating the sheep in their flock. Those are the creationists we should worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/38 "2012-02-07T20:25:46Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > You’re still thinking in terms of us vs them, and that they are somehow the enemy. What they need is being educated, not loathed. I loath creationists precisely because they resist being educated. Their debate on this point has been consitently intellectually dishonest. Have you ever tried? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/39 "2012-02-07T20:31:47Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > You’re still thinking in terms of us vs them, and that they are somehow the enemy. What they need is being educated, not loathed. You _can’t_ educate most of them; they are irrational, not just ignorant. Such people are general outlived, not convinced. And “us versus them” is at the heart of their ideology; they have the True Faith, and they are going to try to ram it down the throat of everyone else no matter what kind of lies or pressure or force is needed. As the history of religion demonstrates, if they could get away with it they’d quite likely be torturing people into “admitting” creationism is true or just murdering them. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/40 "2012-02-07T20:35:24Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > I loath creationists precisely because they resist being educated. Their debate on this point has been consitently intellectually dishonest. Have you ever tried? Sure I’ve tried, but then I’ve realized that it’s futile to waste my breath on them. You can’t really change someone else’s belief system. But I was wondering – Do we really have more creationists in this country now that we did 20 years ago? Or 50? Or 100? If the number is on the rise, that’s alarming, but I would think that the general trend is that the number is falling. We’ll get there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038.md?page=3)