# What do you think is the ultimate goal, if any, of creationists? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 7, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038 "2012-02-07T00:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/41 "2012-02-07T20:40:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You _can’t_ educate most of them; they are irrational, not just ignorant. Such people are general outlived, not convinced. And “us versus them” is at the heart of their ideology; If this is true (and it hasn’t been my experience), then why let them drag you down to their level? Why not just ignore them? As long as they don’t take over the educational system, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/42 "2012-02-07T20:52:47Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > If this is true (and it hasn’t been my experience), then why let them drag you down to their level? Why not just ignore them? As long as they don’t take over the educational system, of course. Because they are trying to take over the educational system, constantly. And have _succeeded_ in largely suppressing the teaching of evolution in schools. They are my enemy, they are genuinely out to shove their beliefs down the throats of everyone else, and ignoring them won’t make them go away. And since I’m not [lying](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10545387/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/judge-rules-against-intelligent-design/), I’m not “down to their level”. > [@](#): > > But the judge said: “We find that the secular purposes claimed by the board amount to a pretext for the board’s real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom.” > > The disclaimer, he said, “singles out the theory of evolution for special treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist text as though it were a science resource and instructs students to forgo scientific inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction elsewhere.” > > \ > > The judge also said: “It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/43 "2012-02-07T21:18:14Z")
The main goal of creationists is getting Biblical Creationism taught as science in schools. The broader goal is making sure their beliefs aren’t challenged - making sure scientific questions can be settled by popular fiat, that anything they say is treated as credible just because they said it, and that people won’t contradict what they say. > [@SDMBKL](#): > > the question is, WHAT IN THE WORLD IS AN INTELLIGENT AGENT? _It’s Jesus._ They’re not exactly subtle about this. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/44 "2012-02-07T22:12:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The main goal of creationists is getting Biblical Creationism taught as science in schools. The broader goal is making sure their beliefs aren’t challenged - making sure scientific questions can be settled by popular fiat, that anything they say is treated as credible just because they said it, and that people won’t contradict what they say. I don’t think that’s 100% fair. I’ve talked to creationists, and bringing up counter-evidence elicits a “not this crap again” response like the ones we give to creationists. I don’t think they see it as being struck down by popular opinion, but through their own twisted logic, feel that they have all this evidence, and all of these idiots are believing this easily debunked crap. They want to see it in science classes because it’s clearly, obviously right. The way they feel is an exact mirror of how we would feel if creationism was the standard in schools. Again, they’re dead wrong about the facts, but I don’t think they want to shout all dissenting opinion down (any more than evolution proponents want to shoot creationism dissent down anyway), so much as they feel that evolution is obviously, factually incorrect, and why the hell are we still teaching something that’s so thoroughly **incorrect**? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/45 "2012-02-07T22:58:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The main goal of creationists is getting Biblical Creationism taught as science in schools. The broader goal is making sure their beliefs aren’t challenged - making sure scientific questions can be settled by popular fiat, that anything they say is treated as credible just because they said it, and that people won’t contradict what they say. I agree but think the emphasis is on the latter. IIRC wasn’t the original goal preventing evolution being taught as science, rather than having creationism taught? It’s not, I don’t think, as if some biblical theory of life origins was taught in science classes before evolution came along. Creationism has always been just filler, designed to avoid a vacuum that banning evolution from science classes would leave. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/46 "2012-02-07T23:05:01Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Creationism has always been just filler, designed to avoid a vacuum that banning evolution from science classes would leave. No; creationism has always been a tool to push people into buying into religion. That’s a major reason why there has been so much religious hostility towards evolution; evolution guts one of their best psychological tools for promoting religion. Before evolution was discovered, “if there’s no God, where did we come from” was religion’s trump card; even people who recognized how ridiculous religion was gave in because they had no answer. Creation also of course appeals to human egotism; it makes us out to be special, handcrafted by God; not just another species. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/47 "2012-02-07T23:11:45Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I don’t think that’s 100% fair. I’ve talked to creationists, and bringing up counter-evidence elicits a “not this crap again” response like the ones we give to creationists. I don’t think they see it as being struck down by popular opinion, but through their own twisted logic, feel that they have all this evidence, and all of these idiots are believing this easily debunked crap. They want to see it in science classes because it’s clearly, obviously right. No, disagree. You can portray the two sides as equally sincere and opposite but there is a very important distinction. The difference is that creationists are only able to think they are right because they live in an echo chamber of their own making, comprised of creationists. They don’t want to know different. For example, I’ve several times had a discussion with generally intelligent people who are creationists who trot out the “entropy” argument against evolution and are floored when you point out the “closed system” qualification on the second law of thermodynamics. They had just never heard that the qualification exists. Why? Because they don’t want to know. They haven’t looked into the counter arguments like any self respecting proponent of evolution would have. All they’ve done is live in an echo chamber where they can have their beliefs and not be contradicted. \*\*Marley23 \*\*has this exactly right. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/48 "2012-02-07T23:24:45Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I don’t think that’s 100% fair. I’ve seen enough “teach the controversy” claims to think that it’s a reasonable assessment. The agenda for leading Creationists - and maybe I should specify that that’s who I was thinking of - has gone like this: assert that something must be true, gin up support, then say there’s a controversy and that the only respectful thing to do is teach both sides. That’s science by popular fiat, and you can see it in action in Creationism and a few other movements. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/49 "2012-02-08T00:02:53Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > . . . The difference is that creationists are only able to think they are right because they live in an echo chamber of their own making, comprised of creationists. . . . And, worse, the leading creationist writers are demonstrably liars. Gish, Morris, et al, have been proven to have distorted facts, altered quotes, changed data, and countless other intellectual wrongdoing. I once had the joy (?) of watching Morris at a creation/evolution debate. He entered into the fallacy of stating that the probability of an experimental event equals one divided by the total number of possible outcomes of the experiment. Not the number of favorable outcomes divided by the number of total outcomes, but **1** divided by the number of total outcomes. Obviously, snowflakes, grains of sand, and human babies are almost incalculably improbable! The “man in the street” among creationists may very likely never have heard of the “closed system” requirement in thermodynamics theory, but what about someone who has a degree in engineering? Yet even then, the matter gets repeated, over and over, without that vital qualification. (I haven’t looked, but I’ve been told that even “Answers in Genesis,” the creationist web site, has told its readers to stop using the weakest and most fallacious debate points.) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/50 "2012-02-08T00:43:36Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (I haven’t looked, but I’ve been told that even “Answers in Genesis,” the creationist web site, has told its readers to stop using the weakest and most fallacious debate points.) That would pretty much shut down the entire web site if followed. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/51 "2012-02-08T13:59:25Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I don’t think that’s 100% fair. I’ve talked to creationists, and bringing up counter-evidence elicits a “not this crap again” response like the ones we give to creationists. I don’t think they see it as being struck down by popular opinion, but through their own twisted logic, feel that they have all this evidence, and all of these idiots are believing this easily debunked crap. They want to see it in science classes because it’s clearly, obviously right. That’s exactly it. We’re right and they’re clearly idiots whose ideas need to be shut down. But from their viewpoint, they’re right and we’re clearly idiots whose ideas need to be shut down. Obviously, that makes us completely different from them. Even though we share 99.9% of our DNA with them, that extra .1% makes them different and evil. How about building bridges of understanding and dialog? Is that such a radical idea? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/52 "2012-02-08T14:09:52Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > That’s exactly it. We’re right and they’re clearly idiots whose ideas need to be shut down. But from their viewpoint, they’re right and we’re clearly idiots whose ideas need to be shut down. > > Obviously, that makes us completely different from them. Even though we share 99.9% of our DNA with them, that extra .1% makes them different and evil. > > How about building bridges of understanding and dialog? Is that such a radical idea? So, what _is_ the half-way point between verifiable fact and unsubstantiated fiction? If one person believes that 2+2=4, and another person believes that 2+2=7, is a “bridge of understanding and dialog” necessary to reach a happy medium? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/53 "2012-02-08T14:15:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So, what _is_ the half-way point between verifiable fact and unsubstantiated fiction? If one person believes that 2+2=4, and another person believes that 2+2=7, is a “bridge of understanding and dialog” necessary to reach a happy medium? I don’t know, how about starting by stop calling them “the enemy”? How about understanding why they hold the beliefs that they do? How about giving them the respect that you wish they would give you? You do want them to respect you, right? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/54 "2012-02-08T14:46:12Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > That’s exactly it. We’re right and they’re clearly idiots whose ideas need to be shut down. But from their viewpoint, they’re right and we’re clearly idiots whose ideas need to be shut down. > > Obviously, that makes us completely different from them. Yes it does. Because we are right. All the facts support us, not them. > [@tdn](#): > > How about building bridges of understanding and dialog? Is that such a radical idea? They are fools, liars and tyrants whose beliefs are malignant, egomaniacal garbage. That’s plenty of “understanding”, and there’s no point in “dialog” with liars and lunatics. > [@tdn](#): > > I don’t know, how about starting by stop calling them “the enemy”? How about understanding why they hold the beliefs that they do? How about giving them the respect that you wish they would give you? They don’t deserve respect. And I understand just fine why they have the beliefs they do; that doesn’t make those beliefs any less wrong or any less stupid. And they are the enemy. > [@tdn](#): > > You do want them to respect you, right? I’d feel ashamed if such people respected me; it would imply that there’s something wrong with me. Not that they ever will. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/55 "2012-02-08T14:48:39Z")
That’s funny, thay’re saying the exact same thing about you. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/56 "2012-02-08T14:58:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (I haven’t looked, but I’ve been told that even “Answers in Genesis,” the creationist web site, has told its readers to stop using the weakest and most fallacious debate points.) Yup. > **[Arguments to Avoid Topic](https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/)** > > There are several popular arguments that creationists should not use simply because they are outdated or contain misinformation. They try to put an honesty and integrity spin on it, but in truth, it’s not “Here are some arguments we should not use, because they’re wrong”, it’s “Here are some arguments we can’t get away with any more” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/57 "2012-02-08T15:00:01Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > That’s funny, thay’re saying the exact same thing about you. But they are _wrong_, while I am _right_. You see, I have a little thing called “reality” on my side. You are pretending to an equivalence that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/58 "2012-02-08T15:06:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But they are _wrong_, while I am _right_. You see, I have a little thing called “reality” on my side. Funny, they are saying the EXACT SAME THING about you. I’m not asking you to change your beliefs or anything like that. Just consider that they are every bit as convinced as you are. Whatever argument you are about to post next – consider a creationist saying it. How would it differ? So far, I’m not detecting even the slightest bit of difference. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/59 "2012-02-08T15:29:13Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Funny, they are saying the EXACT SAME THING about you. Yeah, you’ve said this several times. Just because 2 sides make the same claim doesn’t mean that both sides have an equal claim. Facts trump fantasy, and it is usually best that way. Even _if_ the god that creationists worship would allow them to compromise on the issue(and the last time I checked, he certainly doesn’t), such a “compromise” would only result in a set of half-truths that would serve no one. Besides, it isn’t as if calm attempts at reaching creationists haven’t been been tried many, _many_ times in the past. Even when they grudgingly concede a scientific point, they only do so to shut the scientist up-they will make the same invalid point they next time they speak, just as if the previous concession was never made in the first place. One _cannot_ compromise in good faith with those who refuse to bring good faith to the table, and one should _never_ compromise between fact and fiction. Fact + Fact = Fact Fact + Fiction = Fiction ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038/60 "2012-02-08T19:20:39Z")
> [@SDMBKL](#): > > … and where do they get the truth? :dubious: 7-Eleven? Three for a dollar? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-is-the-ultimate-goal-if-any-of-creationists/612038.md?page=4)