# What do you think of the claim that the students from the massacre are 'too young' to speak? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2018, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733 "2018-02-28T05:23:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/61 "2018-02-28T20:29:39Z")
Sometime the children are the conscience of the culture. We try to instill better values in our children than the ones we actually practice. Life gives us all tough choices, the older we get the more often we’re faced with choosing a direction in the No Man’s Land between clear moral choices, and eventually we all become jaded and fail to see the clear choices based on ideals. Our children are telling us what we have taught them is right. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/62 "2018-02-28T22:41:17Z")
> [@BloodStalk](#): > > I’ve had some people tell me that the students are too young to know what they are talking about. What are your views on this claim? I think it is a desperate attempt by conservatives to shutdown very effective activism. I also think the American conservative movement, especially its obsession with gun ownership, is essentially a white nationalist movement. Why do you ask? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/63 "2018-02-28T22:56:00Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > I really wonder how this thread would have gone if instead of this group of high school speaking out as they have, 1,000 high school shooters with NRA hats had marched advocating for guns rights. I think we’d be having a much different discussion. Like I’ve said, this is true of _any_ issue. One side is gonna dismiss the other, and if someone’s age is a potential vehicle for doing that, it will be used. You know what they say, about peoples’ ox being gored? I _think_ it goes something like this: if your ox is gored, it sucks for you. If someone else’s ox is getting gored, it sucks for them. What are these oxes being gored by, though? Horn? Do oxes gore each other? Or are they being gored by a bison or something, back in the Old West where this expression came about? By the way, and a propos of nothing: _without looking it up_, do you know the difference between an ox and a cow? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/64 "2018-02-28T22:58:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **XT** : > > Today, we are a very affluent society and by and large kids are allowed to be kids much longer… By and large, yes, they are. But these kids have not been afforded that luxury. Adulthood has been thrust upon them, at 300 m/s, and to their credit they are doing an admirable job of growing up to meet it. EDIT: Ox is gender-neutral. Cow is specifically female. Ox also generally refers to the animal being used as a beast of burden, while cow generally refers to the animal being raised for milk or meat, but it’s still the same species. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/65 "2018-02-28T23:19:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ox is gender-neutral. Cow is specifically female. Ox also generally refers to the animal being used as a beast of burden, while cow generally refers to the animal being raised for milk or meat, but it’s still the same species. This is correct. It is the same animal. I was just wondering how many people know it. It’s something that I’ve been known to test people with, whenever discussion of trivia comes up. In my experience, the majority of people do not know that an ox is the same animal as a cow or bull. They think it is a different species of animal and are surprised to learn the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/66 "2018-02-28T23:25:10Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > This is correct. It is the same animal. I was just wondering how many people know it. It’s something that I’ve been known to test people with, whenever discussion of trivia comes up. In my experience, the majority of people do not know that an ox is the same animal as a cow or bull. They think it is a different species of animal and are surprised to learn the truth. Cool story, brah. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/67 "2018-02-28T23:25:26Z")
> [@BloodStalk](#): > > I’ve had some people tell me that the students are too young to know what they are talking about. What are your views on this claim? I think those people are full of shit. It’s a common tactic on the part of elders who don’t want to hear the truth the young people are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/68 "2018-03-01T01:45:50Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Fine. It’s not what I meant, but ok…I was wrong. It wasn’t ‘middle aged’ back then, for those lucky enough not to die young from the variety of things that could or would kill you, or to be burned out young from the harsh menial labor, disease, war or whatever else. Can we get past that part now? Just being picky. Anyhow the real problem is that as thee physical age of our leaders keeps increasing, their mental age and maturity level seems to be decreasing. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/69 "2018-03-01T13:52:55Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I wonder how this thread would go if Freddy The Invisible Pink Unicorn farted magic pixie dust all over the Lincoln Monument and casued a granite statue to suddenly come to life and start singing Pharrel Williams’ “Happy” while dancing around the Reflecting Pool? We’ll never know because that shit didn’t happen, and neither did the the hypothetical scenario above. Wow. Touched a nerve?? I’ll take that as a ‘yes.’ > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It is noteworthy that the only people denying that the students of Marjory Stoneman Douglas (and high school students energized by this topic in general) are people who disagree with their position, which is pretty much exactly in contradiction to the entire principle of freedom of speech and the respect for differing views in a free and open democracy, which tells you everything you need to know about these supposed ‘freedom-loving’ Second Amendment advocates actually feel about the principles of the United States. You clearly know that freedom of speech doesn’t mean that everyone has to listen, or agree with that speech, right? I’m surprised you mentioned freedom of speech here. No one is saying that the government should come and arrest them for having an opinion. That’s just hyperbole meant to inflame the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/70 "2018-03-01T14:18:29Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Wow. Touched a nerve?? I’ll take that as a ‘yes.’ I just have a low tolerance for idiotic “What if…” scenarios bearing no relationship to reality. There have not been “1,000 high school shooters with NRA hats had marched advocating for guns rights,” and even if there were, the experiences of surviving the trauma of being in a mass shooting would still weigh more heavily on the “life consequences” scale of experience. > [@spifflog](#): > > You clearly know that freedom of speech doesn’t mean that everyone has to listen, or agree with that speech, right? I’m surprised you mentioned freedom of speech here. No one is saying that the government should come and arrest them for having an opinion. That’s just hyperbole meant to inflame the discussion. The question isn’t whether they should be listened to or their expressed opinions considered, but whether they are “too young to speak”, which is a patronizing way of saying, “Keep your mouth shut.” You may not agree with everything they have spoken to, (I do not, although it has caused me to reevaluate some of my own closely held opinions and beliefs) but of anyone discussing the issue they have the best reason to speak and the most immediate experience to impart. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/71 "2018-03-01T16:01:09Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I just have a low tolerance for idiotic “What if…” scenarios . . . And I have a low tolerance for “my side is always right” now what’s the question? And I see that far too much here, among otherwise grounded and intelligent people. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The question isn’t whether they should be listened to or their expressed opinions considered, but whether they are “too young to speak”, which is a patronizing way of saying, “Keep your mouth shut.” You may not agree with everything they have spoken to, (I do not, although it has caused me to reevaluate some of my own closely held opinions and beliefs) but of anyone discussing the issue they have the best reason to speak and the most immediate experience to impart. I don’t get that people feel they shouldn’t be allowed to speak at all (and I really question is anyone really does). I think the question is one of weight. How much weight do we give their options, admittedly not that well informed by life experience but well informed by recent life experience? In these discussions, I tend to try and remove the emotion, but you choose to give that added weight, which is your right of course. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/72 "2018-03-01T16:14:07Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > I think the question is one of weight. How much weight do we give their options, admittedly not that well informed by life experience but well informed by recent life experience? In these discussions, I tend to try and remove the emotion, but you choose to give that added weight, which is your right of course. Just curious - how much weight do you give their opinions versus those of the president? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/73 "2018-03-01T16:51:26Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > And I have a low tolerance for “my side is always right” now what’s the question? And I see that far too much here, among otherwise grounded and intelligent people. Nice attempt at trying to characterize my position as an extreme, ban all guns position, but if you were to draw a spectrum I’d still fall on the side that allowing responsible people who have demonstrated competence to own firearms, and banning specific patterns or types of weapons is not an effective strategy to prevention violence. As a gun owner with a lifelong exposure to firearms and a former tactical shooting trainer, I am well-educated and not at all fearful about weapons (although I am sometimes exceedingly concerned about some of the people who elect to carry them in ways and places that are decidedly unsafe or contrary to the public welfare). On the other hand, as a responsible gun owner and a concerned citizen with rational trepidation about how the extreme polarization of our political system has overtaken any notions of pragmatism, I am frankly horrified that our collective response to repeated and increasingly common mass shootings is to throw up our hands and say that nothing can be done _when no other developed nation has these kinds of incidents with a frequency even approaching an order of magnitude_ as we’ve experienced in the past couple of decades. The entrained helplessness and appeal to the Second Amendment as an inviolate and fundamental physical priniciple (which, by the way, is a very modern interpretation dating back to 1980 and the internal coup at the NRA that turned it from being a sportsman’s interest and safety training body to a predominately lobbying arm heavily funded by the firearms manufacturing industry) is not only not helpful but frankly embarassing. We’ve certainly revisited and modified other parts of the Contitution of the United States as technological advances and a broader recognition of civil liberties and rights has developed, and if the thing stopping us from addressing mass shootings of unarmed and unsuspected civilians by emotionally disturbed people who should not have ready access to firearms, it’s well past time that we revisit that prohibition in the interest of domestic security and safety. And no, your gun vault of AR- and AK-pattern rifles is not what keeps the forces of authoritarianism and despotry at bay. > [@spifflog](#): > > I don’t get that people feel they shouldn’t be allowed to speak at all (and I really question is anyone really does). > > I think the question is one of weight. How much weight do we give their options, admittedly not that well informed by life experience but well informed by recent life experience? In these discussions, I tend to try and remove the emotion, but you choose to give that added weight, which is your right of course. The o.p. has certainlhy cultivated a strawman but in recent days I have personally heard people discount the statements of these ‘children’ (again, many of whom are approaching or even at the age of majority, and behave with more decorum and maturity than our current Oval Office shit-and-Twitter occupant) on the basis that they are too close to the issue or don’t have enough ‘life experience’ to understand. But when ‘life experience’ comes at you at 3000 feet per second from a crazed mass killer who should have been under institutional care years ago, you tend to get a certain perspective on the preciousness and fragility of life that someone like, say, a five time draft dodger real estate developer cum reality t.v. star or the guy who spend his Army career cleaning pots at Ft. Benning but now feels like he and his AR-15 are all that stands between liberty and the goddamn liberal elites who want to piss on the flag and make everyone a transsexual, doesn’t really have. Yes, I give the collective experience of these not-children who have been subjected to utterly unprovoked violence that should have been prevented by any number of authorities who failed to take action a lot of weight. And it’s not because of ‘emotion’ (though emotion is certainly high on both sides, and especially those who _feel_ that there is no reason to place any restriction on their ownership of any weapon they like) but because they have experienced the failure of a system that should have protected them and the horror of surviving the kind of violence that shouldn’t occur outside of a war zone. It is very easy to wave a flag and point at a document and say, “Because, my rights…”; it is quite another to live with the shame, guilt, regret, and fear of losing friends and mentors in a completely senseless act of preventable violence. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/74 "2018-03-01T16:59:32Z")
If the students don’t think they are too young to hold and voice an opinion, I would tend to take their word for it. I may not agree with their take on things but I won’t dismiss them out of hand as being too young to have an opinion. I’d say the same thing if they were kindergarteners, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/75 "2018-03-02T20:49:57Z")
> [@BloodStalk](#): > > I’ve had some people tell me that the students are too young to know what they are talking about. What are your views on this claim? I don’t think they’re too young to speak. However, I do not think victimhood confers expertise. So if a victim goes into the public eye, and says something, I don’t think their arguments should be immune to criticism. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/76 "2018-03-02T22:13:40Z")
Hmm. Too young to speak, but not too young to buy an AR-15. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/77 "2018-03-02T23:43:59Z")
> [@AtomicDog](#): > > Hmm. Too young to speak, but not too young to buy an AR-15. Here’s a question we should be asking: are these kids too young to decide whether to attend public school? Currently the law says that kids have to go to school. Parents can choose to move their kids to private school, home school, or certain other options, but certainly kids have no freedom to make their own choices about attending school. [In some cases, that means jail time for skipping school.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbAypxZfj7I) Over the past couple weeks, I’ve heard dozens of liberal journalists and pundits gush about the teenage survivors of the Parkland shooting and praise them for their courage, leadership, intelligence, and so forth. Often they are explicitly noted for their youth in contrast to failings of the adult world. Well then, should they have the freedom to decide whether to attend school or not? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/78 "2018-03-03T00:43:44Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Here’s a question we should be asking: are these kids too young to decide whether to attend public school? > > Currently the law says that kids have to go to school. Parents can choose to move their kids to private school, home school, or certain other options, but certainly kids have no freedom to make their own choices about attending school. [In some cases, that means jail time for skipping school.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbAypxZfj7I) > Over the past couple weeks, I’ve heard dozens of liberal journalists and pundits gush about the teenage survivors of the Parkland shooting and praise them for their courage, leadership, intelligence, and so forth. Often they are explicitly noted for their youth in contrast to failings of the adult world. Well then, should they have the freedom to decide whether to attend school or not? Are you only referring to the students who were under 16, and who spoke out? Their upper classmates are all there voluntarily. ---
**Author:** ![proudfootz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@proudfootz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/proudfootz)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/79 "2018-03-03T00:52:51Z")
Let them speak - they’re the ones paying the price. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733/80 "2018-03-03T02:36:50Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Are you only referring to the students who were under 16, and who spoke out? Their upper classmates are all there voluntarily. I’ve checked and that is true in Florida, but certainly [not nationwide](https://nces.ed.gov/programs/statereform/tab5_1.asp). In any case, some liberals are pouring out praise for activists as young as 14. The point is, I’ve spent the past couple weeks get buried in Facebook posts from liberal friends singing the praises of teenage activists in general. Yet I were to suggest that all high school-aged kids should be free to make their own decisions about how to lead and use their lives in general, how many of those friends would agree? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-claim-that-the-students-from-the-massacre-are-too-young-to-speak/809733.md?page=5)