# What do you think of the hypothesis that tipping culture is a form of sexism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659 "2013-08-19T20:43:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/21 "2013-08-20T13:35:19Z")
Valets and barbers earn minimum wage. Waitresses don’t. Men get paid, women get gifts. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/22 "2013-08-20T14:31:46Z")
It seems to me that the biggest beneficiary of a tipping system is the restaurant owner, since he or she essentially gets to advertise the food at 80-90% of its actual price to the consumer. Note that even Porter still didn’t advertise the true price of the food, but rather broke it out cosmetically into a menu price + a service charge. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/23 "2013-08-20T14:35:36Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It seems to me that the biggest beneficiary of a tipping system is the restaurant owner, since he or she essentially gets to advertise the food at 80-90% of its actual price to the consumer. Note that even Porter still didn’t advertise the true price of the food, but rather broke it out cosmetically into a menu price + a service charge. That’s also what they do in Japan, where tipping is not the norm in restaurants. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/24 "2013-08-20T17:15:30Z")
Lots of men work for tips. There are a ton of male bartenders out there. They get tips for serving drinks promptly and generally being upbeat and friendly. I think tipping is ridiculous, though I tip generously. It doesn’t make sense for an employee to negotiate for his/her salary with the customers rather than the employer. But the article in the OP is way off base. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/25 "2013-08-20T18:12:10Z")
To be clear, women get more than men for the same work. This is sexism against women. Understood. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/26 "2013-08-20T20:57:50Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Actually, I already know the answer: as a man I should feel thoroughly ashamed of myself at all times. > [@blindboyard](#): > > To be clear, women get more than men for the same work. This is sexism against women. Understood. Its good to see you finally coming around and toeing the line. I’d stick around, but I need to go scrape up the $10 cover-charge for “Ladies Night” Happy Hour. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/27 "2013-08-20T21:11:50Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Valets and barbers earn minimum wage. Waitresses don’t. Around here, barbers (and hair stylists) are independent contractors. They rent chair space from the shop (rent is usually a percentage of each customer’s bill) and their income depends on how many customers they have. They also get tipped. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/28 "2013-08-20T21:30:35Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > If tipping truly were class warfare you would expect to see a lot of other non-skilled laborers working for tips. Tipping seems pretty isolated to occupations that involve food or some personal service. . It seems to me that tipping is limited to jobs that used to be servants’ jobs (bringing food to your table, cleaning your bedroom, driving you around, combing your hair…) rather than being related to class or gender. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/29 "2013-08-20T21:36:34Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Around here, barbers (and hair stylists) are independent contractors. . Where is your “here”? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/30 "2013-08-21T01:02:17Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Where is your “here”? Here is St. Louis. This is a listing for a [barber shop "chair rental](http://stlouis.craigslist.org/spa/4011673676.html)." ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/31 "2013-08-22T11:07:27Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > So what? > > Attractive women also do better in sales positions even if you are talking about high end fields such as software sales. > > Being attractive in life will lead you to more success and more money. That’s just human nature. Trying to stamp that out is futile. The fact that attractive women get more tips isn’t indicative of some problem with tipping as a system. It’s just an indicator that people would rather be served by someone attractive that someone who isn’t. As long as that’s the preference of the customer then what’s the problem? If customers preferred to be served by men, or white people, would it be a problem? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/32 "2013-08-22T12:45:05Z")
The waitresses who get the most tips also get the most gropes, pinches and propositions. It evens out. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/33 "2013-08-22T16:11:52Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I’d say it’s not the system that’s sexist: it’s the tippers. . . The system, I wouldn’t call it “class warfare”, . . . > [@Odesio](#): > > If tipping truly were class warfare you would expect to see a lot of other non-skilled laborers working for tips. Tipping seems pretty isolated to occupations that involve food or some personal service. . . . > [@clairobscur](#): > > It seems to me that tipping is limited to jobs that used to be servants’ jobs (bringing food to your table, cleaning your bedroom, driving you around, combing your hair…) rather than being related to class or gender. OK. Putting those together . . . it looks like tipping is a way to display largesse, and that can be an ego boost. I’m old enough to remember when “going out” was a big deal and an ordinary family would only do it a few times a year. People who went out often were showing that they were well off. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > . . . Note that even Porter still didn’t advertise the true price of the food, but rather broke it out cosmetically into a menu price + a service charge. I don’t remember if it was spelled out in the posts, but he’d have to do that to help customers compare prices to other restaurants. Otherwise they’d feel that they were being forced to do math in order to compare, at best. And even if they bothered with the math and did it correctly, they’d still feel like the price was higher, even if it wasn’t. Everyone seems to agree that his comments on sexuality were the most weakly supported. Especially if you compare it to tipping in other situations. I’m willing to declare claim three a bust. What about claim two? Do you think that it’s harder for a manager to convince mediocre servers that they need to step it up if the tips are telling them they’re doing all right? He says that studies show that people don’t significantly reduce tips for bad or mediocre service. I tend to agree with that part. Do you? Do you think it encourages middling service? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/34 "2013-08-22T16:28:57Z")
I have no great attachment to the current tipping system in restaurants, and would be fine with another system. But if Jay Porter is right, why bother with this “service charge” nonsense at all? Why not just pay the entire staff a decent wage, and charge the customers the appropriate prices for their food? Why pretend that a steak dinner costs $30 and that a $6 “service fee” is something separate? Why not just charge $36? It’s all coming out of the customer’s pocket one way or another anyway! ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/35 "2013-08-22T16:30:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Valets and barbers earn minimum wage. Waitresses don’t. > > Men get paid, women get gifts. Waitresses. There are no waiters? Only women serve food? Or are you trying to say that a female server gets half the wage of a male server? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/36 "2013-08-22T16:34:35Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > ## And the people who got angry about that - loudly, loudly angry - were middle aged guys who liked to overtip. So the tips were fantasy connections, for one thing. He then goes on to say that this sort of tipping creates a social construct in which any sort of friendliness, flirting, or sign of sexuality on the part of a server is turned into just something she’s doing to get more tips. It can be ignored as fake. But if it happens in a non-tipping situation, it’s dangerous and makes people uneasy. > > I’m not sure that I buy into every part of his third claim. I’m willing to belive that some clients resent losing the opportunity to overtip and that some, perhaps most, of them fantasize hooking up with a sexy waitress. I’m not so sure that tipping is being maintained because it denies female sexuality. That seems like a bit of a stretch. > > . Well, here in San Jose your waitstaff is just as likely to be male (and yes, since it is a public facing position, being attractive is a help, of course). So, unless he hires all his waitstaff by the “lap-test” he’s full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/37 "2013-08-22T18:06:35Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > . . . Why not just charge $36? It’s all coming out of the customer’s pocket one way or another anyway! Because a significant number of people will go somewhere else, feeling that $36 is too much, when it’s $30 at the other place. Then they’ll tip $7 at the other place, to show they’re not cheap. It’s not logical, but it’s the way people are. As long as tipping is the norm, a non-tipping restaurant will have to show prices that way to make the comparison clear. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/38 "2013-08-22T21:02:59Z")
I remember when I visited NZ for 7 weeks, back in 1985. No tipping was the rule, and the result was that only the most expensive restaurants had waitstaff. Everything else was self-serve. Sorry, but I like going to my favorite diners, where the food is cheap, the service is good, and the coffe is hot. Self-serves are fine, too, but not exclusively. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/39 "2013-08-22T21:58:35Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > I see lots about tipping in the OP but not much about sexism. I think I see what the idea is, but if the sexism aspect is simply that “some middle-aged men tip and some of them probably like tipping more to get the attention of young women” then I think we need a more thorough explanation of exactly how tipping culture “is a form of sexism”. Middle-aged men are not the only people who tip, and young women are not the only people who receive tips. I somewhat skimmed through the first 5 parts of his observations, and while I can agree that sexism probably plays a part into tipping culture, his evidence seems flimsy. He might only remember men freaking out about not being able to leave tips. There might have been women who freaked out as well, and he just didn’t remember, or they didn’t freak out as loudly, or they didn’t make a scene at the restaurant but then complained to all their friends about how ridiculous it was that they couldn’t leave tips. > [@Mijin](#): > > So…I’m the bad guy if I tip, or don’t tip? What about if my waiter is male? > > Actually, I already know the answer: as a man I should feel thoroughly ashamed of myself at all times. I’m a little bothered when people try to make it sound like women are all feminazis and trying to make men hate themselves, but I’ll try to let your second sentence go. But it’s pretty simple: you’re not a bad guy if you treat your waitress with respect, don’t make her feel uncomfortable with your flirting, tip her decently if she does her job well, or talk with the manager if she doesn’t do her job well, and don’t make ridiculous demands. Treat your waitress basically like you would treat your waiter. Don’t penalize her if she’s not super perky and friendly and doesn’t have a lot of makeup on her face, just like you wouldn’t penalize a waiter for the same. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I tip because it’s expected and I buy into, whether it’s true or not, the idea that my total money outlay is the same as someone eating at an equivalent nontipping restaurant. If tomorrow it were decided that tipping is passe and servers will just get a regular wage like the rest of us, that’s fine, it’ll save me the embarrassment of trying to do simple math drunk. I agree, I tip because it’s the custom, but I’d be thrilled if it went away. It would make things easier. > [@Debaser](#): > > I’ve been to countries where they don’t tip: Ugly servers, slow service and general unpleasantness was rampant. In the US where they need to earn tips you can sense the hustle from them. But is there any connection between tips and good service? I don’t think there is. Let’s say a waitress served a table and sees that one of the customers left a 25% tip. That tip could be at that amount for any number of reasons: [ul] [li]The customer usually leaves 15%, but thought the waitress was excellent so he left a 25% tip[/li][li]The customer always leaves a 25% tip no matter what[/li][li]The customer is usually extremely generous and leaves a 40% tip, but was disappointed with the service and only left the 25% tip [/li][li]He meant to leave a much smaller tip, but miscalculated, or accidentally put too many dollars on the table[/li][li]He didn’t care about the service one way or the other, but thought she was really cute so gave her 25% [/li][/ul] There’s probably other things I’m missing. Wait staff can’t really tell how good their service is based on the tips, because there’s so many things that affect tip amounts. I don’t know why service is worse in other countries, but I don’t think it just comes down to the tips. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659/40 "2013-08-22T23:33:37Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Where is your “here”? “Here” is probably the US. I’ve known a few haircutters in my time and this was how it worked almost everywhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-hypothesis-that-tipping-culture-is-a-form-of-sexism/666659.md?page=3)