# What do you think of the US DUI Level **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 12, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402 "2011-01-12T23:34:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/41 "2011-01-13T14:43:26Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > I would be perfectly happy with 0% as the legal limit. > > I can think of no reason, whatsoever, why someone needs to drink _ANY_ alcohol and then drive. Take a cab, take a bus, ride with a friend or drink at home. It’s so easy it mystifies that people still don’t get it. So there’s no way my wife and I can go out for dinner, and enjoy a couple of glasses of wine without coughing up an additional $50 to $100 for a cab ride home? I see. ---
**Author:** ![Skara\_Brae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Skara\_Brae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skara_Brae)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/42 "2011-01-13T14:44:58Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > I would be perfectly happy with 0% as the legal limit. > > I can think of no reason, whatsoever, why someone needs to drink _ANY_ alcohol and then drive. Take a cab, take a bus, ride with a friend or drink at home. It’s so easy it mystifies that people still don’t get it. You must live in an area where cabs and buses are widely available. Some places they are not, and people still like to have a drink or two when they go out to dinner… ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/43 "2011-01-13T14:46:22Z")
Seriously. Everyone who has a glass of wine with dinner should call a cab home? That’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/44 "2011-01-13T16:41:44Z")
While we’re at it I think that open containers should be allowed too. If I want to crack a beer on my way home from buying beer I don’t see the harm. If I get pulled over and I’m drunk that’s a different story, but just having a beer in the car shouldn’t be a crime either. ---
**Author:** ![CPomeroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed8c4c/32.png) [@CPomeroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CPomeroy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/45 "2011-01-13T17:03:10Z")
I also feel that the per se DUI level is too low in the US (I learned a new phrase as a result of starting this poll). One thing I found interesting is when they proposed lowering the level from 0.1 to 0.08 here in MN the only justification offered was that it would increase DUI arrests. Some folks have mentioned here and in other threads that there is scientific evidence justifying a level of 0.08 or lower, I would be interested in taking a look at that if anyone has a link. I like the idea of having some set BAC level as an offense like any traffic ticket, and then further punishment if you are demonstratably impaired or violate other laws. However, I realize that the devil is in the details on how you could actually implement this. I would also support more severe penalties for those who repeatedly get caught driving while truly impaired. The other thing I learned from starting this poll is that if I do it again I need to phrase the options more clearly. Edit to add omitted thanks to Rumour for providing a very helpful definition of “per se”. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/46 "2011-01-13T17:03:15Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > You do know you can get a DUI for sleeping in your car right? > > I think the standards are wrong for DUI/DWI most of the time. The limit should be higher and charges should only apply if you’re caught doing something else, like swerving or driving into mailboxes or whatever. Stopping people at checkpoints is asinine and the penalties for a first time DUI are insane. It’s a racket. Completely agree. The limits are definitely too low. Those who are in favor of lowering the limit but who still might want to have a glass of wine at dinner should probably go get Breathalyzed at some point just to see. You would be shocked to find out how little alcohol people can have and still be legally “impaired.” As far as I can determine, BAC charts are much like BMI charts. Maybe they are valid for populations as a whole, but they can be, and often are, wildly inaccurate on a person-to-person basis. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/47 "2011-01-13T17:47:04Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Seriously. Everyone who has a glass of wine with dinner should call a cab home? That’s ridiculous. No, you should have the willpower not to have that oh-so-precious glass of wine with dinner. There are plenty of non-alcoholic drinks you can choose from. Please note, the above is not anywhere near close to my opinion – it’s the argument I’ve seen offered up by the 0%BAC-types in the past. The current legal limit is laughably low, and exists purely as a money maker. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/48 "2011-01-13T17:50:18Z")
> [@Necros](#): > > Completely agree. The limits are definitely too low. Those who are in favor of lowering the limit but who still might want to have a glass of wine at dinner should probably go get Breathalyzed at some point just to see. You would be shocked to find out how little alcohol people can have and still be legally “impaired.” This is a disingenuous argument, implying that a single glass of wine would cause someone to reach the legal threshold for impairment. A 0.08% BAC would be equivalent to having 3-4 beers or glasses of wine in the span of an hour. (See [this online calculator](http://www.ou.edu/oupd/bac.htm).) If you have had three or four beers in that span of time, you will definitely experience a degradation of judgment and ability to estimate time and distance, even if you don’t display any outward signs of reduced mobility or awareness. The ability to self-judge the degree of impairment is notoriously unreliable. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/49 "2011-01-13T18:02:31Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > The current legal limit is laughably low, and exists purely as a money maker. no, it doesn’t. it exists because scientific data has demonstrated that BAC level to be one where there is significant/sufficient degradation in an average person’s capacity to control multiple tons of steel at high speeds. also, I think most people should really stop using faulty nomenclature - this really is a case where people’s misunderstanding and misuse of terms skews their conception of the topic. you write “the current legal limit” - I have attempted to explain (and if you don’t believe me, feel free to do your own research) that there is no legal limit for alcohol consumption when driving a car. if you are impaired while driving, you are DUI, even if you are under the per se threshhold. why is this significant? because what you speak as a problem with the “legal limit” only applies to people who would not be impaired while operating a motor vehicle with a BAC of greater than .08. To the genuine .001% of people to whom this applies, too bad - we don’t write criminal laws that account for 100% of behaviors by 100% of citizens 100% of the time, society focuses their energy and efforts at the means (the other 99.999% who think that they can drive at that BAC or above, you’re just shining youreslves on). ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/50 "2011-01-13T18:04:51Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > This is a disingenuous argument, implying that a single glass of wine would cause someone to reach the legal threshold for impairment. A 0.08% BAC would be equivalent to having 3-4 beers or glasses of wine in the span of an hour. (See [this online calculator](http://www.ou.edu/oupd/bac.htm).) If you have had three or four beers in that span of time, you will definitely experience a degradation of judgment and ability to estimate time and distance, even if you don’t display any outward signs of reduced mobility or awareness. The ability to self-judge the degree of impairment is notoriously unreliable. > > Stranger That was in response to the highly-absurd notion that the BAC level should be comfortably dropped to zero. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/51 "2011-01-13T18:09:02Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > So there’s no way my wife and I can go out for dinner, and enjoy a couple of glasses of wine without coughing up an additional $50 to $100 for a cab ride home? > > I see. So what would you do in the Czech Republic, say, where the limit IS zero? And they certainly drink alcohol there. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/52 "2011-01-13T18:09:38Z")
I choose something else because of the ambiguity. Assuming that BAC means blood alcohol in percent, and not in promille (and that’s why the numbers are all off by one digit), we used to have a limit of 0.08, but it got lowered. I’m frankly astonished at how many people believe that they or others can drive safely with a BAC of up to 0.08 (0.8 promille)! The ADAC (German auto club) does these tests regularly - they invite a group of men and women to drive a simulated car route while non-drunk and then have only a few glass of beer or wine. When the BAC is measured, it’s under 0.08, but even after \*\* one glass\*\*, reactions are impaired, tunnel vision starts, etc. Sadly, one of the first brain centers that’s affected medically by alcohol is self-image. People don’t notice that their actions are impaired, they firmly believe that they are still capable of driving safely, if they just compensate a bit. When they see how badly compared to before their simulator run is, they are shocked. I wish it was financially possible (Simulators are expensive) to do this at every bar, so people would see how much one glass of beer affects them. As for those who say “But others are driving impaired, too - texting, eating etc.” - don’t your traffic laws forbid every activity that distracts the driver??? Don’t your cops stop drivers doing this? ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/53 "2011-01-13T18:10:27Z")
> [@CPomeroy](#): > > Some folks have mentioned here and in other threads that there is scientific evidence justifying a level of 0.08 or lower, I would be interested in taking a look at that if anyone has a link. My google-fu ain’t too great, but you could start checking out the references quoted [here](http://www.icap.org/PolicyTools/ICAPBlueBook/BlueBookModules/16BloodAlcoholConcentrationLimits/tabid/176/Default.aspx) (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Alcohol consumption is known to impair reaction time and affect an individual’s ability to execute a range of motor tasks (e.g., Grant, Millar, & Kenny, 2000; Parks et al., 2002; Roldán, Frauca, & Duenas, 2003). Driving is an activity that requires precision, relying heavily on motor skills, reflexes, and the ability to make quick decisions. **Reaction time of an inebriated driver may be reduced by 10 to 30% as compared to a sober individual.** In addition, vision is blurred, and the judgment of distance, speed, and hazards is impaired (Davis, Quimby, Odero, Gururaj, & Hijar, 2003). > > A person’s risk of being involved in a traffic crash and likely injury severity **increase exponentially with the amount of alcohol consumed** (Blomberg et al., 2009; Borkenstein et al., 1964; Global Road Safety Partnership [GRSP], 2007; Moskowitz, Blomberg, Burns, Fiorentino, & Peck, 2002; Moskowitz & Fiorentino, 2000; Mounce & Pendleton, 1992). There is evidence that even **drivers with a blood alcohol concentration (BAC) level between 0.2 and 0.4 mg/ml are 1.4 times more likely to be involved in crashes than those who have not been drinking**. Involvement in **fatal crashes is much more likely for drivers with BAC levels over 0.5 mg/ml** than in drivers who have not consumed alcohol (Blomberg et al., 2009; GRSP, 2007; Zador, 1991; Zador, Krawchuk, & Voas, 2000). It’s because of studies like these that many the 0.02% legal limit in many countries really is a zero limit with a safety margin thrown in (since no chemical analysis is failproof). ETA: I, and more or less everybody I know never drink and drive. Not even a couple of beers of glasses of wine. If you’ve been drinking anything alcoholic, you don’t belong behind a steering wheel. Period. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/54 "2011-01-13T18:13:07Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > You do know you can get a DUI for sleeping in your car right? That needs to be changed at the same time. I also agree that “open container” laws are ridicouls. (As is the fact that in many US states, it’s forbidden to drink in public or be drunk in public as pedestrian! I thought you guys were done with prohibition? Apparently not.) ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/55 "2011-01-13T18:17:23Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > That needs to be changed at the same time. > > I also agree that “open container” laws are ridicouls. (As is the fact that in many US states, it’s forbidden to drink in public or be drunk in public as pedestrian! I thought you guys were done with prohibition? Apparently not.) Do you think open container laws in vehicles are asinine? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/56 "2011-01-13T18:18:46Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > So what would you do in the Czech Republic, say, where the limit IS zero? > > And they certainly drink alcohol there. 1. Designated driver: one person stays sober 2. Take a walk or public transport - they do have cities in Czech, not everybody lives out in the woods miles and miles and miles away like in the US. 3. Meet at somebodys home and stay overnight. Germany has lowered the BAC from 0.08 to 0.05 (and to 0.00 for beginning drivers), and during the Octoberfest, there are millions of people getting drunk. They take cabs and public transport. (And the police sets up roadblocks all around). When the young people want to party, cities offer party bus lines that pick the people up at designated spots, drive to different clubs and discos, and then drive them back to the stops in the middle of the night. When a middle-aged couple wants to have a nice evening in a good restaurant, they either take public transport or the wife (many women I know don’t like to drink much alcohol anyway) stays sober. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/57 "2011-01-13T18:23:12Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Do you think open container laws in vehicles are asinine? Yes. We don’t have that law here and stop drunk drivers fine. The problem is not a container of beer in the car; the problem is the alcohol in the blood of the driver. If the rest of the people in the car have a high BAC, but the driver is sober, no problem. That’s why the police has the breathalyzers. If the driver was drinking and passes his container on, his breath will still show up. If the rest of the car was drinking, the drivers breath is clean. What does the container law accomplish for road safety? There is one danger with open containers in general: they can tip and spill, distracting the driver. But that’s true for apple juice or coffee in a thermos, too. And drivers should know that they never, ever take their eyes of the road no matter what tips over in their car. If you drop a cigarette onto your pants, you aren’t allowed to look down to pick it up, you have to pull over to the side. Or show common sense by securing things in the first place! ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/58 "2011-01-13T18:26:56Z")
In Canada 33.8% of motor vehicle deaths were associated with alcohol use. I just read that on Wiki. That means that 76.2% of motor vehicle deaths were associated with sober drivers. Clearly sober drivers should be the main concern here. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/59 "2011-01-13T18:29:31Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Yes. We don’t have that law here and stop drunk drivers fine. The problem is not a container of beer in the car; the problem is the alcohol in the blood of the driver. If the rest of the people in the car have a high BAC, but the driver is sober, no problem. That’s why the police has the breathalyzers. If the driver was drinking and passes his container on, his breath will still show up. If the rest of the car was drinking, the drivers breath is clean. > > What does the container law accomplish for road safety? dude, haven’t you been paying attention in this thread? There are people here who swear, swear i tell you, that they (or they know of people who) can drive just fine with multiple drinks in their system. Encouraging them to keep drinking by allowing them to drink _while they’re driving_ is stupid - there’s no reason to let them do it anyways. Sadly, I wish we didn’t need such a law and could rely on people not to do it. Unfortunately, this thread has proven that my wishes are probably best left as wishes. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402/60 "2011-01-13T18:29:43Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > In Canada 33.8% of motor vehicle deaths were associated with alcohol use. > > I just read that on Wiki. > > That means that 76.2% of motor vehicle deaths were associated with sober drivers. > > Clearly sober drivers should be the main concern here. Have a beer and check your math. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-the-us-dui-level/567402.md?page=4)