# What do you think of this plea deal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751 "2011-11-22T15:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/81 "2011-11-23T21:57:56Z")
There is simply too much we do not know here. I would need some questions answered, like: 1. Just how _physically_ agressive was the gay kid? Was he of the size and temperment that made the killer live in fear? What other physical means did he use (or attemt to use) to get the other kid to stop? 2. Just how agressive were the school bullies who made fun of the killer? Was the killing intended to stop the gay kid’s advances or the bullying? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/82 "2011-11-23T22:14:18Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > And what did the gay kid deserve to lose? You know he’s dead, right? You don’t come back from something like that. > > You know what, it sucks that this kid was made to feel uncomfortable, and he caught some shit from other kids. I feel for him. Sincerely, I know what it’s like to be embarrassed as a kid. But he \*executed \*this other kid because he didn’t like a gay guy coming on to him. Executed him. Two shots to the back of the head to make sure he was well and truly dead. That cannot be described with, “he handled it poorly.” > > If the circumstances were reversed and it was the gay kid who shot the other one because he’d been rebuffed and bullied, are you trying to tell me you take the same, fuck personal responsibility, stance? > > I’m betting you wouldn’t. You’d lose. I absolutely would. I give kids latitude that I don’t give adults. I’ve laid out this position in past threads regarding the death penalty. He killed a kid, yes. Horrible. Yes. Tragic as all hell for the victim and his family. You can think what you want, but a fourteen year old is a kid. Kids make bad decision. Sometimes really, really bad ones like this. Punish him, yes. But acknowledge he is a kid. I could be wrong, but it sounds like you want to be hard on the kid in part because the other kid was gay, and “how dare that make Brandon uncomfortable”. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/83 "2011-11-23T22:17:02Z")
Actually, I’m a little perturbed at the whole two bullets to the back of the head thing. The fact that some in this thread, maybe not you, are willing to use the gayness thing as some sort of mitigating factor is what doubly irritates me. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/84 "2011-11-23T22:20:15Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Actually, I’m a little perturbed at the whole two bullets to the back of the head thing. The fact that some in this thread, maybe not you, are willing to use the gayness thing as some sort of mitigating factor is what doubly irritates me. The only mitigating factors for me are: 1. he felt harassed (for whatever reason), told the people in charge about it and they did nothing 2. He is fourteen ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/85 "2011-11-23T22:46:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The only mitigating factors for me are: > > 1. he felt harassed (for whatever reason), told the people in charge about it and they did nothing > > 2. He is fourteen Just to make my position clear, Jack, I agree with point one as the mitigating factor most important (If McInerney is tried as a Juvenile) NOT the fact that he killed a gay kid. This kid first tried to handle this the right way. magellan01 could have done better by noting not only did the school administrator handling this conflict do nothing to solve the problem, she even made it worse by chiding of McInerny that he should be more tolerant, regarding the testimony at trial that she had wagged her finger at McInerney with a disapproving look when McInerney refused King’s advances. I can EASILY see that McInerney may have felt that the message was he had to be gay too. He was fourteen, God knows what kind of confusion he was feeling. With point two, this is the most important reason to be tried as a juvenile. I’d only see it as mitigating when tried as an adult. Nowhere have I said “killing a gay” is a mitigating factor. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/86 "2011-11-23T22:55:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m a pretty staunch law and order guy, with little sympathy for those who break the law. But this kid was a _kid_. Fourteen years old is not an adult by any stretch of the imagination. He reached out for help and it wasn’t there for him. Did he handle things horribly? Yes. And he should go to jail for some time. But a kid is a kid. He certainly doesn’t deserve to to lose 25 years of his life. > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > But the shooter didn’t go out and shoot bullies. He shot the gay kid who made him uncomfortable. Twice. In the back of the head. > 25 years should be the minimum he spends in prison. What I find weird about this plea deal is they had a trial, hung jury. The prosecution caved in trying to convince the jury that Brandon was a gay hater and has neo-Nazi influences. Most of the jury interviewed by the prosecutors didn’t buy their gay-hater story. Next step is retrial, where 1st degree murder looks like it’s out the window. Still, if convicted, Brandon may have gotten 50 YEARS!! (That’s for 1st Deg and a hate crime attached) I seriously doubt that another jury would’ve fell for that again, but the defense understanding that 50 years COULD happen, they agreed to 25?? I think that if Brandon just beat the crap out of him, we may have seen no conviction. The fact that he DID take the right steps by seeing his counselor, principal and teachers showed he knew right from wrong, but then murder execution style in a classroom?? It appears that everyone’s breaking point really is that different. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/87 "2011-11-23T22:56:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except you also specifically complained about him “not keeping his gayness to himself” in addition to the rather odd claims of him sexually harassing dozens of co-workers while the company rather foolishly and inexplicably decided to open itself up to massive sexual harassment lawsuit. > > Additionally, you’ve complained about the school allowing Larry to wear makeup and high heels. > > That’s hardly sexual harassment. No, it’s not, (taken alone) but it goes to whether gay rights trump otherwise reasonable rules about dress. The school has a dress policy prohibiting disruptive clothing. Pit the two together, and the answer ought to be NO student may disrupt the educational rights of the other kids by wearing provocative clothing, regardless of the sexuality of the student. Instead it was interpreted as the right of the student to be gay trumps the provocative dress prohibition. Especially when its clear that King wore girls clothing and makeup as part of an overall continuing course of conduct featuring much repeated taunts about sexuality to many of the other kids designed to make them feel uncomfortable, and you have a situation that in effect means being gay is a license to misbehave because everyone is too afraid that they’ll be stifling his right to his sexuality if they say anything. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/88 "2011-11-23T23:01:11Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > There is simply too much we do not know here. I would need some questions answered, like: > > 1. Just how _physically_ agressive was the gay kid? Was he of the size and temperment that made the killer live in fear? What other physical means did he use (or attemt to use) to get the other kid to stop? > > 2. Just how agressive were the school bullies who made fun of the killer? Was the killing intended to stop the gay kid’s advances or the bullying? Here’s an in-depth Newsweek article on the case that I’d recommend everyone read because it gives far more information on the shooting and Larry(the victim) and Brandon(the killer). Both came from difficult backgrounds. Larry had been bullied for years and he sometimes retaliated by saying things like “you really want me” to the bullies. With Brandon, it was different. He had a huge crush on him and often followed him around. What caused Brandon to snap was that after a bunch of his girlfriends went up to boys they liked and asked them to be their valentines, Larry went up to Brandon and asked him to “be my Valentine” which caused several of Brandon’s friends to start laughing and tease Brandon and ask him about making “gay babies”. Brandon then told one of Larry’s girlfriends “say goodbye to him because you’re never going to see him” and a few days later he brought a gun to school and shot the smaller boy to death. Basically, I’d say this would be comparable to is some smelly, obeses, nerdy freshman went up to one of the senior cheerleaders and, in front of her friends, asked for a date and, in response to her friends teasing her, the cheerleader shot the boy to death a few days later. I could be wrong, but I doubt anyone would dispute the above scenario was murder. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/89 "2011-11-23T23:01:49Z")
> [@](#): > > It wasn’t just that King, 15, had begun wearing makeup and women’s spiked-heeled boots, witnesses testified. It was that he seemed to relish making the boys squirm at his newly feminized appearance and was taunting them with comments like “I know you want me.” Just saw a picture of Larry. He looks like a much smaller and weaker kid, although looks may be deceiving. But it’s the line ‘he seemed to relish making the boys squirm’ that gets me. This suggests he delighted in provoking a reaction…hell, a lot of teenagers do. Now, all three stories linked to are still a little light in the specifics. But one question keeps rolling around in my mind… “Why didn’t he just punch Larry???” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/90 "2011-11-23T23:02:22Z")
Oops, here’s the link. [http://web.archive.org/web/20080722131056/http://www.newsweek.com/id/147790>1=43002](http://web.archive.org/web/20080722131056/http://www.newsweek.com/id/147790>1=43002) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/91 "2011-11-23T23:04:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What caused Brandon to snap was that after a bunch of his girlfriends went up to boys they liked and asked them to be their valentines, Larry went up to Brandon and asked him to “be my Valentine” which caused several of Brandon’s friends to start laughing and tease Brandon and ask him about making “gay babies”. > > Brandon then told one of Larry’s girlfriends “say goodbye to him because you’re never going to see him” and a few days later he brought a gun to school and shot the smaller boy to death. I saw this after my last reply. Thanks for the info. It looks and feels like Brandon killed him for his pride. If this is the case, 25 years to far too lenient. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/92 "2011-11-23T23:05:10Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Just saw a picture of Larry. He looks like a much smaller and weaker kid, although looks may be deceiving. > > But it’s the line ‘he seemed to relish making the boys squirm’ that gets me. This suggests he delighted in provoking a reaction…hell, a lot of teenagers do. > > Now, all three stories linked to are still a little light in the specifics. But one question keeps rolling around in my mind… > > “Why didn’t he just punch Larry???” Seems far more reasonable to me. Maybe he wanted to get national attention. Punching him wouldn’t have gotten that. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/93 "2011-11-23T23:06:51Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Just saw a picture of Larry. He looks like a much smaller and weaker kid, although looks may be deceiving. > > But it’s the line ‘he seemed to relish making the boys squirm’ that gets me. This suggests he delighted in provoking a reaction…hell, a lot of teenagers do. > > Now, all three stories linked to are still a little light in the specifics. But one question keeps rolling around in my mind… > > “Why didn’t he just punch Larry???” That’s what I’m saying too! If he beat up Larry, got arrested, got media attention, the school district could really define what is “appropriate behavior” regardless of sexuality. Apologies could’ve been made. Suspensions, expulsions. NORMAL school shit. Since Brandon literally executed Larry, all we have is another nasty murder. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/94 "2011-11-23T23:11:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The only mitigating factors for me are: > > 1. he felt harassed (for whatever reason), told the people in charge about it and they did nothing. Can you link me to where Brandon complained about Larry’s behavior? Some teachers complained and other students, but I see no reference to Brandon filing a complaint and being rebuffed. Beyond that, I’m not sure why asking someone to “be my Valentine” would be considered disciplinary behavior. Should the fat freshman who asks the Captain of the Cheerleading team for a date be disciplined? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/95 "2011-11-23T23:19:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Can you link me to where Brandon complained about Larry’s behavior? > > Some teachers complained and other students, but I see no reference to Brandon filing a complaint and being rebuffed. > > Beyond that, I’m not sure why asking someone to “be my Valentine” would be considered disciplinary behavior. > > Should the fat freshman who asks the Captain of the Cheerleading team for a date be disciplined? Telling an adult in charge is enough of a complaint. 14 year olds don’t need to file formal written complaints in school. There have been three links in this thread showing that the school administration did nothing to address King’s harassment of McInerney. Have a look. Taking it alone, asking someone to be your valentine is not worthy of disciplinary behavior. The problem here with King’s behavior is that it was ongoing and repeated and nothing was done to correct it. If the fat guy asks the cute cheerleader to be his Valentine, no problem. If he asks her after he’s been rebuffed every day for some time, YES, he should be disciplined. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/96 "2011-11-23T23:20:27Z")
> [@David42](#): > > No, it’s not, (taken alone) but it goes to whether gay rights trump otherwise reasonable rules about dress. The school has a dress policy prohibiting disruptive clothing. Pit the two together, and the answer ought to be NO student may disrupt the educational rights of the other kids by wearing provocative clothing, regardless of the sexuality of the student. Instead it was interpreted as the right of the student to be gay trumps the provocative dress prohibition. Especially when its clear that King wore girls clothing and makeup as part of an overall continuing course of conduct featuring much repeated taunts about sexuality to many of the other kids designed to make them feel uncomfortable, and you have a situation that in effect means being gay is a license to misbehave because everyone is too afraid that they’ll be stifling his right to his sexuality if they say anything. Yes, but schools aren’t allowed to stop Jewish students from wearing Kippas based on “disruptive clothing”. Similarly, a school in Californa which tried to stop Anglo kids from deliberately wearing American flags all over their body on Cinqo De Mayo which offended a number of Mexican-American students was reprimanded for doing so. Moreover, do you really think there weren’t plenty of girls at the school wearing makeup and high heels. If the school was going to forbid Larry from wearing makeup and high heels, then they’d have to do the same to the girls. Now, perhaps you feel that schools should have the right to ban Jewish kids from wearing Yarmulkas or students from wearing American flag T-shirts if a school administrator decides they’re disruptive, but most of us don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/97 "2011-11-23T23:27:30Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Telling an adult in charge is enough of a complaint. 14 year olds don’t need to file formal written complaints in school. > > There have been three links in this thread showing that the school administration did nothing to address King’s harassment of McInerney. That’s not true. They’re been references towards Larry being too flamboyant or retaliating against bullies by flirting with them, but nothing about complaints of teachers complaining of him harassing Brandon or of Brandon complaint to the school authorities about being harassed. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/98 "2011-11-23T23:27:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, but schools aren’t allowed to stop Jewish students from wearing Kippas based on “disruptive clothing”. > > Similarly, a school in Californa which tried to stop Anglo kids from deliberately wearing American flags all over their body on Cinqo De Mayo which offended a number of Mexican-American students was reprimanded for doing so. > > Moreover, do you really think there weren’t plenty of girls at the school wearing makeup and high heels. > > If the school was going to forbid Larry from wearing makeup and high heels, then they’d have to do the same to the girls. > > Now, perhaps you feel that schools should have the right to ban Jewish kids from wearing Yarmulkas or students from wearing American flag T-shirts if a school administrator decides they’re disruptive, but most of us don’t. Again, you’re isolating one aspect of this incident and showing how that one isolated aspect would be unreasonable IF TAKEN ALONE, but you’re not looking at all of them all together. The combination of embarrassing McInerney AFTER being told he was uninterested repeatedly, in combination with inciting bullying, in combination with wearing sexy girls’ clothing, in combination with sexual touching, is more than any single instance of one of those alone. King’s behavior should have been stopped. Instead the assistant principal meant to correct McInerney for not enjoying King’s advances. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/99 "2011-11-23T23:34:25Z")
> [@David42](#): > > If the fat guy asks the cute cheerleader to be his Valentine, no problem. If he asks her after he’s been rebuffed every day for some time, YES, he should be disciplined. Except that Brandon didn’t “rebuff” him every day and Larry hadn’t asked Brandon for a date every day. Read the Newsweek article and you’ll see that Larry’s behavior regarding Brandon was dramatically different than his behavior towards the boys who’d bullied him, whom he retaliated against by flirting with. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/100 "2011-11-23T23:37:59Z")
And it’s beside the point anyway. Regardless of whether he was disciplined I don’t accept that as a mitigating factor in his being killed in these circumstances. Same thing if the fat kid asked the cheerleader out on a date every day. Murder is simply not explainable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751.md?page=6)