# What do you think of this plea deal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751 "2011-11-22T15:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/101 "2011-11-23T23:41:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s not true. They’re been references towards Larry being too flamboyant or retaliating against bullies by flirting with them, but nothing about complaints of teachers complaining of him harassing Brandon or of Brandon complaint to the school authorities about being harassed. Go back through page 1 for the two cites to the L.A. Times and read the Wikipedia article I already showed you. The L.A. Times stories have a teacher talking about her testimony, how she addressed this issue to the assistant principal on behalf of both McInerney and the other students who were complaining. The assistant principal’s reaction was to wag her finger at McInerney, while King paraded back and forth. It kinds of looks like the assistant principal using a gay kid to promote an agenda. One can only wonder how she would have approved if McInerney had eventually given in and become King’s boyfriend. She’d have had a big smile on her face and talked glowingly of the victory for gay rights. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/102 "2011-11-23T23:44:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except that Brandon didn’t “rebuff” him every day and Larry hadn’t asked Brandon for a date every day. > > Read the Newsweek article and you’ll see that Larry’s behavior regarding Brandon was dramatically different than his behavior towards the boys who’d bullied him, whom he retaliated against by flirting with. The newsweek article was written before trial testimony came to light. With this new information in hand, the Newsweek article appears ill informed. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/103 "2011-11-24T00:01:07Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Go back through page 1 for the two cites to the L.A. Times and read the Wikipedia article I already showed you. Er… you linked to the wikipedia article to prove that the assistant principal was a lesbian. The wikipedia article links to the vastly more in-depth Newsweek article. Also, I looked at both of the LA Times articles and neither claims that Larry repeatedly propositioned or flirted with Brandon nor does either article mention teachers complaining about Larry repeatedly flirting with Brandon specifically as opposed to the boys who’d bullied him. If I’m wrong, it’s easy to prove. Please quote from the LA Times article where it says that Larry repeatedly propositioned Brandon. Simply ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/104 "2011-11-24T00:07:45Z")
> [@David42](#): > > The newsweek article was written before trial testimony came to light. With this new information in hand, the Newsweek article appears ill informed. The reporters who did the article spent months researching it and it’s five pages. The LA Times articles are a few paragraphs and don’t even contradict it. You’re demonstrably wrong. If anyone thinks I’m wrong, I’d recommend reading the Newsweek article. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/105 "2011-11-24T00:55:59Z")
> [@David42](#): > > The L.A. Times stories have a teacher talking about her testimony, how she addressed this issue to the assistant principal on behalf of both McInerney and the other students who were complaining. . Actually, it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > "It was reported, more than once, by more than one person,‘’ said English teacher Dawn Boldrin. “It was documented. There is paperwork on this. She kept saying that she didn’t know and she did. She knew. She did. Everybody knew.” This simply a quote Boldrin. The article does not say this was ‘testimony’ given under oath, or that Boldrin was called to testify at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/106 "2011-11-24T01:15:12Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > This simply a quote Boldrin. The article does not say this was ‘testimony’ given under oath, or that Boldrin was called to testify at all. Nor does it say Boldrin was referring to Larry’s behavior towards Brandon. Nobody disputes that Larry often retaliated against bullies who harassed him by saying things like “you’re cute” to make them feel uncomfortable, because being small and effeminate it was the only way he could defend himself. His behavior towards Brandon is a separate issue. Brandon was a boy he had a crush on and Brandon murdered him for publicly revealing ghat crush. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/107 "2011-11-24T01:34:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And it’s beside the point anyway. Regardless of whether he was disciplined I don’t accept that as a mitigating factor in his being killed in these circumstances. Same thing if the fat kid asked the cheerleader out on a date every day. Murder is simply not explainable. It’s _explainable_, it’s just not _justifiable_. And I don’t think anyone is saying that the kid doesn’t deserve to go to jail. Just that his age, and the degree to which the administration let him down should be taken into consideration. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/108 "2011-11-24T01:35:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Nor does it say Boldrin was referring to Larry’s behavior towards Brandon. > > Nobody disputes that Larry often retaliated against bullies who harassed him by saying things like “you’re cute” to make them feel uncomfortable, because being small and effeminate it was the only way he could defend himself. > > His behavior towards Brandon is a separate issue. Brandon was a boy he had a crush on and Brandon murdered him for publicly revealing ghat crush. It sounds like it was a bit more than that. He didn’t just reveal it. He advertised it, to the point that if he was a duh going after a girl he’s probably be considered a stalker. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/109 "2011-11-24T01:36:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Moreover, do you really think there weren’t plenty of girls at the school wearing makeup and high heels. And with that, reasonableness splits the scene. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/110 "2011-11-24T01:44:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It sounds like it was a bit more than that. He didn’t just reveal it. He advertised it, to the point that if he was a duh going after a girl he’s probably be considered a stalker. Show me specifically what he did to Brandon that had it been done to a girl would have made him labeled “a stalker”? Publicly revealing he had a crush? Asking a girl to “be my Valentine”? After all, Brandon murdered him for publicly asking Brandon to be his Valentine. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/111 "2011-11-24T01:45:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And with that, reasonableness splits the scene. :rolleyes: Huh? Please explain. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/112 "2011-11-24T01:54:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Nor does it say Boldrin was referring to Larry’s behavior towards Brandon. > > Nobody disputes that Larry often retaliated against bullies who harassed him by saying things like “you’re cute” to make them feel uncomfortable, because being small and effeminate it was the only way he could defend himself. > > His behavior towards Brandon is a separate issue. Brandon was a boy he had a crush on and Brandon murdered him for publicly revealing ghat crush. “Teachers at the trial testified that when they tried to report growing tensions between King and several boys, school leaders shunned them.” > **[Archive blogs](https://www.latimes.com/archives/blogs/)** > > Los Angeles Times blogs that were published between 2006 and 2013. Now, just in case you wanna further go with the “Boldrin wasn’t a witness” angle, you might also see [http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily\_News/2011/07/11/King\_McInerney\_Teacher\_Shaping\_Up\_as\_Key\_Witness/](http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/07/11/King_McInerney_Teacher_Shaping_Up_as_Key_Witness/) Please note that Epstein only brought this matter to the attention of higher ups in the school administration over the concerns of a substitute over one issue: dress. Substitutes may only have a limited picture, and it is easier to dismiss their concerns. Boldrin, a regular teacher who knows these kids on a day to day basis, was ignored, with a more complex complaint than mere dress. The defense well disproved the “administration-never-knew” theory. It’s not true; the facts are that the assistant principal knew about King’s antics and encouraged them and did noithing about the sexual harrassment faced by other students. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/113 "2011-11-24T02:10:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Show me specifically what he did to Brandon that had it been done to a girl would have made him labeled “a stalker”? > > Publicly revealing he had a crush? > > Asking a girl to “be my Valentine”? > > After all, Brandon murdered him for publicly asking Brandon to be his Valentine. Repeatedly I complain, **Ibn Warraq** , that you keep trying to narrow this into a single act…“Brandon murdered him for publicly asking Brandon to be his Valentine.” There is a whole lot more to it than that. Start talking about the whole picture, please, instead of isolating each incident in a series, looking at it out of context, and saying “there’s nothing wrong with that act.” There’s a lot here that isn’t wrong if viewed alone out of the rest of the circumstances. If a guy did what King did to a girl, no responsible adult would have hesitated to tell him to back off, after it had caused conflict and had gone on a couple weeks. It is very clear that the assistant principal viewed the expression of gay sexuality a prerogative over the sexual harrassment of other students, on a theory that the other students weren’t accepting enough of gay sexuality and needed to learn some tolerance. (finger wagging) Now when the fat dork asks the head cheerleader to prom, she says “Ugh,” and turns her nose. Nobody condemns her for not wanting to date a guy she doesn’t like. But when Brandon McInerney said “UGH,” the assistant principal wagged her finger with a disapproving look. I wasn’t the fat dork kid, but I still never had the courage to ask the cheerleaders out, even though I was a football player. How I wish I had a principal to stand around in disapproval of her sexuality and wag his finger while she says UGH. No-one ever thought that my sexuality was special enough to do that for me. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/114 "2011-11-24T02:44:57Z")
> [@David42](#): > > “Teachers at the trial testified that when they tried to report growing tensions between King and several boys, school leaders shunned them.” I don’t see any to Brandon in that. Are you conceding that there’s no mention in the articles of Larry repeatedly propositioning Brandon? > [@](#): > > If a guy did what King did to a girl, no responsible adult would have hesitated to tell him to back off, after it had caused conflict and had gone on a couple weeks. Tell us exactly what Larry did to Brandon that would have caused him to be condemned had he done it to a girl. Also what are you talking about “after it had caused conflict and gone on for a couple of weeks”? Brandon shot him less than two days after the “be my Valentine”. > [@](#): > > If a guy did what King did to a girl, no responsible adult would have hesitated to tell him to back off, after it had caused conflict and had gone on a couple weeks. Ok, what exactly did Larry do to Brandon that he’d have been condemned for if he’d done to a girl? > [@](#): > > Now when the fat dork asks the head cheerleader to prom, she says “Ugh,” and turns her nose. Nobody condemns her for not wanting to date a guy she doesn’t like. > > But when Brandon McInerney said “UGH,” the assistant principal wagged her finger with a disapproving look. Huh, what are you talking about? Epstein didn’t “wag her finger” at Brandon because he rejected Larry’s proposal, But because another day, Brandon got “visibly upset” when he say Larry “prancing around in high heels.” Well, Larry has just as much right to “prance around in high heels” as Jewish people do to wear yarmulkas, girls have the right to prance around in high heels, or whites have the right to wear American flags at a school, even if people get upset by that. Also, even that shouldn’t piss you off since the standard you set was would it have been considered inappropriate if he’d done it to a girl. In fact, Larry pranced around in high heels in front of lots of girls and none were offended and I think all would have laughed had people insisted he was sexually harassing them. > [@](#): > > How I wish I had a principal to stand around in disapproval of her sexuality and wag his finger while she says UGH. No-one ever thought that my sexuality was special enough to do that for me. What makes you think a principal wouldn’t have disciplined a girl who ridiculed you for “prancing around in high heels.” Had you wanted to prance around in high heels or wear makeup to school that was your right and a girl who verbally mocked you for doing so would be considered intolerant. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/115 "2011-11-24T03:07:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What makes you think a principal wouldn’t have disciplined a girl who ridiculed you for “prancing around in high heels.” > > Had you wanted to prance around in high heels or wear makeup to school that was your right and a girl who verbally mocked you for doing so would be considered intolerant. The Holy Grail of gay rights: tolerance trumps all. I see; in your opinion my sexuality will be taken seriously _ **ONLY IF** _ I prance around in girls clothing and high heels. MY POINT was that no-one thinks its important to disapprove of those who reject my advances. Apparently, you believe that my sexuality isn’t special enough if I do not don high heels makeup and girls clothing and come on to men. My suggestion is that if an appropriate behavior for school principals is to disapprove of one student’s lack of desire for another, I’d sure appreciate it if someone did the same for me cause I’d have asked a whole lot more girls out than I did when I was in high school. As **Magellan01** said, “And with that, reason departs the scene.” But I doubt you’ll figure it out being told a second time, when you wouldn’t understand the first. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/116 "2011-11-24T03:26:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Also what are you talking about “after it had caused conflict and gone on for a couple of weeks”? > > Brandon shot him less than two days after the “be my Valentine”. D’oh. Maybe it actually started BEFORE the valentine proposal? Read carefully enough and you will realize that concerns over Larry King’s behavior in school go back FIVE YEARS before the valentine’s day proposal. It’s documented that King came out as gay at 10 years old. (and tell me that this isn’t possibly adolescent confusion, even before puberty) At the very least, the L.A. times article has King’s mother expressing her concerns over her son’s behavior four days, NOT TWO, before the shooting. She was disregarded because of Larry’s rights to be gay. The teacher who got ignored was forced out of her job. The assistant principal who ignored her got promoted to be the full principal of another school. One can only imagine how this principal lectures her kids on gay rights after being rewarded after ignoring the pleas of the teacher and mother who saw this violence coming. This assistant principal should spend a few of Brandon’s years in jail and rethink this matter thoroughly. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/117 "2011-11-24T03:29:06Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I see; in your opinion my sexuality will be taken seriously _ **ONLY IF** _ I prance around in girls clothing and high heels. MY POINT was that no-one thinks its important to disapprove of those who reject my advances. Apparently, you believe that my sexuality isn’t special enough if I do not don high heels makeup and girls clothing and come on to men. Huh? What are you talking about? Where did I say that? > [@](#): > > My suggestion is that if an appropriate behavior for school principals is to disapprove of one student’s lack of desire for another, I’d sure appreciate it if someone did the same for me cause I’d have asked a whole lot more girls out than I did when I was in high school. Please quote exactly where the principal ever made it clear that students were forced to “accept the advances” of gay students. All the principal did was say that Brandon couldn’t get visible upset at Larry for wearing high heels. What’s wrong with that? How is that different from saying that students can’t get upset at or ridicule Jews who wear Kippas? Are you saying that if Larry had been Jewish and wanted to come to school dressed as a Hasid the school could have prohibited him from doing that because that type of outfit is “distracting” and would be seen by many as “weird” and would have attracted lots of attention? > [@](#): > > The Holy Grail of gay rights: tolerance trumps all. So then you’re saying that students have the right to ridicule people wearing religious attire that many consider “distracting”? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/118 "2011-11-24T03:31:17Z")
> [@David42](#): > > D’oh. Maybe it actually started BEFORE the valentine proposal? > > Read carefully enough and you will realize that concerns over Larry King’s behavior in school go back FIVE YEARS before the valentine’s day proposal. > > It’s documented that King came out as gay at 10 years old. (and tell me that this isn’t possibly adolescent confusion, even before puberty) > > At the very least, the L.A. times article has King’s mother expressing her concerns over her son’s behavior four days, NOT TWO, before the shooting. She was disregarded because of Larry’s rights to be gay. > > The teacher who got ignored was forced out of her job. The assistant principal who ignored her got promoted to be the full principal of another school. One can only imagine how this principal lectures her kids on gay rights after being rewarded after ignoring the pleas of the teacher and mother who saw this violence coming. > > This assistant principal should spend a few of Brandon’s years in jail and rethink this matter thoroughly. Ok, please tell me exactly what Larry did to Brandon that would have been so horrible if he’d done it to a girl? Also, quote where he did that. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/119 "2011-11-24T03:32:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > What are you talking about? > > Where did I say that? > > Please quote exactly where the principal ever made it clear that students were forced to “accept the advances” of gay students. > > All the principal did was say that Brandon couldn’t get visible upset at Larry for wearing high heels. > > What’s wrong with that? > > How is that different from saying that students can’t get upset at or ridicule Jews who wear Kippas? > > Are you saying that if Larry had been Jewish and wanted to come to school dressed as a Hasid the school could have prohibited him from doing that because that type of outfit is “distracting” and would be seen by many as “weird” and would have attracted lots of attention? > > So then you’re saying that students have the right to ridicule people wearing religious attire that many consider “distracting”? Reason has departed the scene. I’ll go no further arguing against your confirmation bias. Prove yourself right all you like. Knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751/120 "2011-11-24T03:41:09Z")
Are you saying that _Brandon_ was the victim of some injustice? Because that’s just not in the news stories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-this-plea-deal/603751.md?page=7)