# What do you think of Trevor Noah's inside joke at the Oscars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 25, 2019, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214 "2019-02-25T23:47:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/81 "2019-02-27T22:15:19Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I would not presume to explain to you how a racial joke works in South Africa. **I can assure you, nonetheless, that in American joke telling the concept of punching up is well known, well understood, and well accepted except by those who are bigoted and ignorant.** Since you’re not American you can be excused as ignorant on such subtleties. But not on the name calling. Can you cite evidence for the sentence in bold as it pertains to comedy? Has this same concept been worded differently in the past? I don’t recall ever hearing of the concepts of punching up and punching down in comedy before I heard The Young Turks using them 3-4 years ago and I’ve noticed since the usage seems to have become commonplace. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/82 "2019-02-27T22:16:05Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > So you want others to have a discussion with you but you are not willing to have a discussion with others. And you’re willing to call others bad people but we shouldn’t assume that of you. Got it. > > I would not presume to explain to you how a racial joke works in South Africa. I can assure you, nonetheless, that in American joke telling the concept of punching up is well known, well understood, and well accepted except by those who are bigoted and ignorant. Since you’re not American you can be excused as ignorant on such subtleties. But not on the name calling. Views can be bigoted and prejudicial, that is not synonymous with being a bad person. All my comments were about the views themselves, not about posters. If I have made any posts in this thread calling a specific poster a disparaging name please show me and I will report it to a moderator and ask for a well deserved 30 day suspension(personally I believe this place is a little too lenient). Having poorly thought out views based upon what I consider to be ignorance does not necessarily make one a bad person in my opinion. If I think posters are bad people, I don’t talk to them at all. There’s plenty of people I respect on here and admire IRL who have some views that I think are terrible. It takes far more than having some views I disagree with for me to think someone is an overall bad person. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Nonesutch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@Royal\_Nonesutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Nonesutch)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/83 "2019-02-27T22:30:22Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > If I have made any posts in this thread calling a specific poster a disparaging name please show me and I will report it to a moderator and ask for a well deserved 30 day suspension(personally I believe this place is a little too lenient). “And after the spankings, the oral sex!” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/84 "2019-02-27T22:33:29Z")
**[Moderating]** A reminder, everyone, that there’s a difference between attacking a post and attacking a poster. Everything I’m seeing so far in this thread is on the safe side of the line… but some of it only just barely. Let’s tone it down, please, and if you have a problem with a specific poster, take it to the Pit, not here. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/85 "2019-02-27T23:53:12Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > Can you cite evidence for the sentence in bold as it pertains to comedy? Has this same concept been worded differently in the past? I don’t recall ever hearing of the concepts of punching up and punching down in comedy before I heard The Young Turks using them 3-4 years ago and I’ve noticed since the usage seems to have become commonplace. My cite is your post. If you think the usage has become commonplace then how is it not well known and well accepted? Punching up jokes has an older meaning of sharpening them. But the concept of punching up relating to the target is something I associate with discussions of the old National Lampoon, which was often criticized for making fun of the non-elite and powerful, even though it was run by Harvard graduates. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/86 "2019-02-28T05:26:43Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > You don’t think **Walrus** would be able to enlighten me with his views of history? No, I really don’t. Not that their views wouldn’t be enlightening, of course. > [@](#): > > It’s not very nice to underestimate a fellow doper like that. I apologize, I’m only going by your posts in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/87 "2019-02-28T06:07:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I really don’t. Not that their views wouldn’t be enlightening, of course. If the views are enlightening why would I not be enlightened by them? Please elaborate, when you have a chance. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/88 "2019-02-28T10:43:02Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > I disagree. Making real groups of people the butt of a joke is always punching down. If I were Noah, I would have said the Xhosa equivalent of, “Whitey McWhite-Person doesn’t know I’m lying.” Inventing a whimsical sounding name would probably have been less of a hit, but it’s a smarter joke with dual fictional properties. He didn’t say white people, he used a bit of slang (abelungu) that depending on who you ask either means sea foam\* or wanderer. It is the whimsical name. To me it is not punching down but rather prodding sideways, but that is from my personal context as a white South African. Really he English translation makes it sound more racist than it really is. \*referring of course to the Europeans arriving in South Africa by ship. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/89 "2019-02-28T11:16:03Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > If the views are enlightening why would I not be enlightened by them? Please elaborate, when you have a chance. Nah, see post #84. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/90 "2019-02-28T12:53:09Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > I disagree. Making real groups of people the butt of a joke is always punching down. Not by the traditional usage of that term. Punching down is mocking the traditionally disadvantaged, while punching up is mocking the traditionally advantaged. Both of these are relative to the speaker, so someone poorer or lower class can mock people higher up the chain than someone who is middle class. It’s also why, for instance, a black comedian can tell at least some jokes about black people, but a white person would be considered racist for doing so. Comedians all the time make fun real groups of people the butts of jokes. But punching up is generally considered less offensive than punching down. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/91 "2019-02-28T13:07:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Not by the traditional usage of that term. Punching down is mocking the traditionally disadvantaged, while punching up is mocking the traditionally advantaged. Both of these are relative to the speaker, so someone poorer or lower class can mock people higher up the chain than someone who is middle class. It’s also why, for instance, a black comedian can tell at least some jokes about black people, but a white person would be considered racist for doing so. > > Comedians all the time make fun real groups of people the butts of jokes. But punching up is generally considered less offensive than punching down. Even more than that, a black comedian can joke about white people without having the same resonance and nastiness as a white comedian joking about black people. This comedian explains it really well: > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Here’s the equivalent in reverse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_mRaIHb-M). Making jokes about large groups is a tiny bit obnoxious. It goes far beyond obnoxious to make such jokes in the context of a society that has traditionally stripped that group of basic rights based on membership in that group. It goes far beyond that when those jokes riff off of the stereotypes used to strip that group of their rights. But if you refuse to acknowledge social context, then all jokes about groups look exactly the same. That’s willful ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/92 "2019-02-28T13:54:02Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > If the views are enlightening why would I not be enlightened by them? Please elaborate, when you have a chance. I think I can say it without violating the rules. Based on what has happened in this thread, it would seem likely that you would perceive a completely different message out of what they said than **Mr Dibble** would, just like you read something completely different into what **Exapno Mapcase** said. You seem to reject the idea that history is even relevant. So then, why would you find a discussion of history enlightening? But, if you want an idea of what would likely be said, check out that video **LHOD** linked just below my previous post. That’s the sort of thing being said: that the historical context of oppression changes the dynamics of what is and is not offensive. It’s similar to how a rich person attacking a poor person as lazy is more offensive than a poor person calling the rich lazy. (Though, I admit, I disagree with how he defines “reverse racism.” He’s just describing punching down vs. punching up.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/93 "2019-02-28T14:59:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Nah, see post #84. As I’m interpreting this you feel that moderation in post #84 prevents you from clearly explaining your meaning in this post. Is this interpretation wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/94 "2019-02-28T15:18:58Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I think I can say it without violating the rules. > > Based on what has happened in this thread, it would seem likely that you would perceive a completely different message out of what they said than **Mr Dibble** would, just like you read something completely different into what **Exapno Mapcase** said. > > You seem to reject the idea that history is even relevant. So then, why would you find a discussion of history enlightening? Read all my posts, I clearly do not think history is irrelevant. I think a selective analysis of history where crucial facts and distinctions are ignored only spreads ignorance and false narratives. This is not complex, the very basic, simple premise that I believe is wrong from the perspective of science or history is that skin color based assesments of people are innaccurate, do not lead to anything fruitful and are ultimately harmful and not helpful. When I say this, it seems to me that a conclusion is jumped to that has nothing to do with what I am saying. I am not saying that black people have not been unfairly oppressed, I am not saying that past racism does not have current impacts that create tremendous disadvantages for people of color. What I am against is assumptions that because one group has suffered unfairly and disproportionally at the hands of another that all people with the same skin color as the oppressor group should be thought of the same or even part of that group. I am also against the perpetuation of social norms that allow for different rules for people with different skin color, to me that is wrong in the same way that segregation is wrong. If you believe anything I have said in regard to history is inaccurate, show me where I am wrong. If you don’t agree with my views, tell me where my views are inaccurate. If you want to change my view, you may possibly have some success if you show me where I am specifically and factually wrong. I will probably not even respond to any more vague statements similar to what you have posted above. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/95 "2019-02-28T16:44:05Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > If you believe anything I have said in regard to history is inaccurate, show me where I am wrong. If you don’t agree with my views, tell me where my views are inaccurate. If you want to change my view, you may possibly have some success if you show me where I am specifically and factually wrong. I will probably not even respond to any more vague statements similar to what you have posted above. You continue to abuse language. Your post is a series of opinions. Not one line can be said to contain a fact that is verifiable or disprovable. How very convenient. All we can say is that your opinions are ill-considered, historically dubious, unworkable, and unfair. Those are opinions, but it’s a fact that we hold them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/96 "2019-02-28T17:05:05Z")
[Moderating] And, we’re still getting uncomfortably close to that line. In the interests of giving everyone a chance to cool down, I’m closing this thread temporarily. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/97 "2019-03-02T13:54:40Z")
OK, hopefully everyone’s had a chance to calm down now, and we can resume polite conversation. As a reminder, the Pit is just down the hall, if you feel the need to vent about other posters. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/98 "2019-03-04T19:21:52Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > So, in your view of history, Catholics, Jews, Italians, and Irish have been part of this globally dominant race. Interesting, tell me more. I mean, I get what you’re saying. “White” people is a gross simplification, and “white privilege” doesn’t apply equally. I’m ok with the muddling of a complex sociohistoric hodgepodge for the purposes of a joke, given that the central point is more true than not. But also, to address your specific point: [Catholics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_colonialism), [Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#After_World_War_II), and [Italians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Empire). I’ll grant you the Irish, though. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/99 "2019-03-04T23:34:57Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I mean, I get what you’re saying. “White” people is a gross simplification, and “white privilege” doesn’t apply equally. I’m ok with the muddling of a complex sociohistoric hodgepodge for the purposes of a joke, given that the central point is more true than not. > > But also, to address your specific point: [Catholics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_colonialism), [Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#After_World_War_II), and [Italians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Empire). > > I’ll grant you the Irish, though. Are you seriously trying to say that Jews are considered to be a privileged class? That it wouldn’t be “punching down” to mock the Jews? :dubious: Oh that’s funny. Really, really funny. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214/100 "2019-03-05T09:55:19Z")
Remember when this thread was about Trevor’s joke? Countdown to the next closing… At this point I’m just assuming it was a shoutout to his South African peeps who speak Xhosa and the white people/“seafoamers” meant were specifically the white South Africans those people interact with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-of-trevor-noahs-inside-joke-at-the-oscars/830214.md?page=6)