# What does 'Alcatraz' really mean? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 29, 2008, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004 "2008-07-29T00:02:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![deg007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@deg007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deg007)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/1 "2008-07-29T00:02:06Z")
Hi all, this is my first visit here, so I will be on my best behavior and your answers must all be clever, concise, and perfectly accurate. :dubious: If you research enough on the internets, you will find both the traditional meaning of ‘Alcatraz’, and an alternate. I can’t figure out the truth, and I have had some help that hit a brick wall. Alcatraz is usually translated as ‘pelican’. As your kind fingers massage the web, you’ll also find it can mean ‘lillies’. LILLIES?! Apparently something was lost in the translation… I went to a Spanish-English dictionary message board. They couldn’t give a definitive answer. I work with a pretty smart guy whose native tongue is Spanish. He doesn’t know. I searched Straightdope archives. Nada. I live near Alcatraz Island (not on it), and have heard ‘pelican’ often enough on game shows that I accepted it. But go to your fave search engine, enter ‘Alcatraz’ and ‘lillies’ and you’ll see enough sites that state ‘Alcatraz’ is a flower you’ll see my confusion. So far, ‘pelican’ sites are winning, but how is it possible two distinct things can mean Alcatraz?? Lillies and pelicans for gosh sake! How did this get ‘lost in the translation’? Middling-great minds want to know… And I thank you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/2 "2008-07-29T00:11:46Z")
When in doubt, go to the [source](http://www.bop.gov/about/history/alcatraz.jsp): > [@](#): > > The name Alcatraz is derived from the Spanish “Alcatraces.” In 1775, the Spanish explorer Juan Manuel de Ayala was the first to sail into what is now known as San Francisco Bay - his expedition mapped the bay and named one of the three islands Alcatraces. Over time, the name was Anglicized to Alcatraz. While the exact meaning is still debated, Alcatraz is usually defined as meaning “pelican” or “strange bird.” ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/3 "2008-07-29T01:05:31Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] When in doubt, go to the [source](http://www.bop.gov/about/history/alcatraz.jsp): [/QUOTE] Perhaps if one traced it back even further to its Moorish origins, a clue might emerge? ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/4 "2008-07-29T01:11:02Z")
For those of us who don’t speak Moorish, could you add more detail? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/5 "2008-07-29T01:35:27Z")
Both the pelican and the calla lily are named for their shapes; al-catras, in Arabic-influenced Portuguese (and Spanish, it appears), means the bucket of a water wheel. It’s more likely to refer to pelicans in the case of our island, as I doubt that lilies have been so successful there. > **[Word Watching](https://books.google.com/books?id=jOnVL0IlXE4C&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=al%2Bcatras&source=web&ots=w8eTogJXve&sig=byS8ZtlQ8aQgGhtIsU-WgvDc3k8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA15,M1)** > > We live in a torrent of words—from radio and television, books and newspapers, and now from the Internet. But, as Julian Burnside reminds us in this witty and erudite collection, words are a source both of pleasure and power, and can be deployed for... ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/6 "2008-07-29T01:47:57Z")
[Some more info](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=albatross) from the “Etymology Online Dictionary.” ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/7 "2008-07-29T02:56:32Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] When in doubt, go to the [source](http://www.bop.gov/about/history/alcatraz.jsp): [/QUOTE] This is an unhelpful answer. The question did not deserve a reply that is analagous to “google is your friend.” **deg007** : Welcome to the SDMB. Interesting question. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/8 "2008-07-29T03:00:55Z")
[QUOTE=Green Bean] The question did not deserve a reply that is analagous to “google is your friend.” [/QUOTE] Nor did it get one. But, thanks for the pointless snark. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/9 "2008-07-29T03:10:10Z")
> [@](#): > > The word alcatraz comes from the Spanish and Portugese word for “pelican”, which derives from the Arabic al-qadus, referring to the bucket of a water-raising irrigation wheel. The bird was so named because it was thought to scoop water into its beak pouch to transport to its young in the desert. This word was later mistakenly applied to the Frigate-bird in the form albatross, not to be confused with albacore, another offspring of Arabic. The Portugese albacor comes from al-bukr, meaning, oddly enough, a young camel. Might want to check the ingredients in your tuna sandwich! > **[Take Our Word For It, page one - Spotlight](http://www.takeourword.com/current/page1.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/10 "2008-07-29T13:54:50Z")
[QUOTE=Punoqllads] For those of us who don’t speak Moorish, could you add more detail? [/QUOTE] I don’t speak Arabic, nor did I imply that I do. Spanish (and Portuguese) words that start with “al” are almost exclusively of Arabic origin because of the Moorish (Arab and Berber) invasion and 800 year occupation of the Iberian Peninsula. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/11 "2008-07-30T01:21:12Z")
I apologize, I read your post as implying so. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/12 "2008-07-30T01:36:51Z")
Although _alcatraz_ seems to have originally referred to pelican, in modern Spanish these are now called _pelicanos_. The word has been applied to various other large seabirds, but presently most commonly refers to [gannets](http://www.richard-seaman.com/Birds/NewZealand/Gannets/TheColonies/GannetGlidingCloseup.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/13 "2008-07-30T01:41:01Z")
[QUOTE=Green Bean] This is an unhelpful answer. The question did not deserve a reply that is analagous to “google is your friend.” [/QUOTE] [Moderating] I don’t see anything to take exception to in **Q.E.D.s** post. If you have a problem with a post, the best thing to do is report it. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/14 "2008-07-30T02:21:10Z")
Found this here in Spanish (searching for etimologia alcatraces) [http://www.correodelmaestro.com/anteriores/1997/octubre17/sentidos17.htm](http://www.correodelmaestro.com/anteriores/1997/octubre17/sentidos17.htm) > [@](#): > > Alcatraz del árabe al-ghattas: “águila marina de cola blanca”, compuesto del artículo masculino al-: “el” y ghattas. “águila marina de cola blanca”, es decir, “pelícano”. La flor recibió este nombre por su color blanco y quizá por su semejanza con el pico abierto de un pelícano. loose translation: Alcatraz from al-ghattas in arabic: Marine eagle with white tail. Composed of the masculine article “al” (the) and ghattas. “Marine eagle with white tail” meaning pelican. The flower received this name for its white color and perhaps for its resemblance to the open beak of a pelican. So yeah, in case you hadn’t figured this was about the flower but it seems to have gotten its name from the arabic name of a pelican. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/15 "2008-07-30T03:05:22Z")
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe] Alcatraz from al-ghattas in arabic: Marine eagle with white tail. Composed of the masculine article “al” (the) and ghattas. “Marine eagle with white tail” meaning pelican. [/QUOTE] Interesting. The “marine eagle with white tail” must refer to the [White-tailed Eagle](http://viking-nevo.narod.ru/images/expeditions/2005-kotka/haliaeetus-albicilla.jpg), aka the “Sea Eagle,” the Erne of crossword-puzzle fame. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/16 "2008-07-30T08:40:03Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Although _alcatraz_ seems to have originally referred to pelican, in modern Spanish these are now called _pelicanos_. The word has been applied to various other large seabirds, but presently most commonly refers to [gannets](http://www.richard-seaman.com/Birds/NewZealand/Gannets/TheColonies/GannetGlidingCloseup.jpg). [/QUOTE] Nasty birds They’re not in my spotters guide. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/17 "2008-07-30T10:31:55Z")
From the RAE, translating more-or-less and following all their links: * * * _alcatraz 1_: 1. m. alcartaz. (from Spanish Arabic alqartás o alqirtás, este del ár. clás. qirtās, y este del gr. χáρτης, papyrus sheet) - the ts in Arabic have a dot underneath and the á in the greek is an alpha, for some reason they aren’t copypasting well. Means “cucurucho” which in turn is a hollow cone (think an ice cream cone or a dunce’s cap). 2. m. A kind of conical flower. 3. m. Mexico. Again, a specific kind of conical flower. _alcatraz2._ (Perhaps from Spanish Arabic. \*qatrás, he who walks proudly). 1. m. A kind of pelican. * * * So, as far as the RAE knows, the origins for those two meanings are different (although, logically, both come from Arabic). They’re two different words which happen to “look” the same. An alcatraz is not any pelican. There’s pelícanos and there’s alcatraces, they look different. Most people (at least in Spain) when they say “pelícano” mean the pink or white ones. Alcatraces are white with some black, and smaller. ---
**Author:** ![deg007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@deg007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deg007)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/18 "2008-07-31T22:50:23Z")
Whoa !! I am duly impressed, shocked, amazed, and humbled by the detailed responses! It certainly appears that some co-mingling of languages, definitions, and looseness of transcriptions is at play here. The best I can glean, which I will now be satisfied with, is that a pelican and calla lily are often white, have a ‘bucket-type’ of opening, and that ‘alcatraz’ mixes arabic, spanish and portugese word origins. I liken it to, say, ‘upset’, in English. ‘Upset’ was a horse that upset the competition decades ago, upsetting his rivals, and causing bettors to upset their cocktail tables, and changing the usage of a word permanently-- okay, maybe not the best analogy… Anyway… Thank you all. Your detailed answers certainly make me a believer, and I’m now looking for that four cents a day in my couch so I may be a subscriber. =) ---
**Author:** ![Tonycoliveira701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71e660/32.png) [@Tonycoliveira701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tonycoliveira701)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/19 "2016-04-25T04:55:56Z")
Alcatraz is a Portuguese word for a large amount of sea birds. What we might call a flock of seagulls, pelicans, etc. the Portuguese sailors in the late 1500-1600 that frequently traveled to North America found the island ( Alcatraz ) overwhelmingly loaded with such birds. Alcatraz today is referred to a larger type of seagull not so much as a flock of seagulls. Alcatraz is also used as; any flock of birds that feeds from live or dead fish. All in all, Alcatraz is best used when there’s various flocks of fish eating birds. It was also around the time the Portuguese named the ocean ( Pacific Ocean ) for the simple reason it was very calm ( Pacifico in Portuguese ) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004/20 "2016-04-25T06:18:34Z")
It wasn’t the Portuguese, it was the Spaniards. But hey, at least you got the right Peninsula 😛 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-alcatraz-really-mean/458004.md?page=2)