# What does being "gay" even mean?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 6, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819 "2013-07-06T23:10:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/21 "2013-07-07T05:32:51Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Guy sucking other guy’s dick? Both gay.
What about not even have the goddamn common courtesy to give a reach-around? Is that a gay thing or just a jerk thing?
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/22 "2013-07-07T05:36:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> What about not even have the goddamn common courtesy to give a reach-around? Is that a gay thing or just a jerk thing?
I thought a reach-around _was_ a jerk thing.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/23 "2013-07-07T05:42:29Z")
Well, it could also be a stroke thing, in all fairness.
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/24 "2013-07-07T05:48:34Z")
> [@Lamia](#):
>
> We’re not necessarily right about everything either; in fact I’m certain that some beliefs that are common today will someday be considered pretty stupid. With regard to sexuality, we already know that human sexuality is far more complicated than “straight” or “gay”. I don’t just mean “Oh, and also bisexuals” …
No, really, in fifty years or so, it will be entirely like “I don’t care whom you do what with, nor do I care that you mince around or have an odd haircut, because behaviors and appearances are what they are.” In other words, the issues surrounding sexuality will be background noise. Whether it is nature or personal choice will not be debated, because no one will care. People will even struggle to imagine a world that could have treated Oscar Wilde the way it did. Unless, of course, they go to Riyadh and see how neanderthals act.
> [@Ambivalid](#):
>
> And this is why anal sex is often referred to as “greek” or “going to Greece”.
I thought the phrase was something like “Greece up your ass”?
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### Author:  [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/25 "2013-07-07T05:51:08Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#):
>
> This is exactly what I don’t understand. When both the penetrater and the penetrated are described by same term (gay), I think this term is useless. I’ve never seen something like that. Yes, recently I have seen lads in my country who like being penetrated and we would call them something equivalent to “gay”. But I’ve never seen anyone who exclusively likes to penetrate men and if such people exist, I think they should be called something that reflects their masculinity.
As one of those people you describe, gay works just fine. I don’t need a special word to ‘reflect my masculinity.’
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### Author:  [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/26 "2013-07-07T05:53:49Z")
> [@For You](#):
>
> No, really, in fifty years or so, it will be entirely like “I don’t care whom you do what with, nor do I care that you mince around or have an odd haircut, because behaviors and appearances are what they are.” In other words, the issues surrounding sexuality will be background noise. Whether it is nature or personal choice will not be debated, because no one will care. People will even struggle to imagine a world that could have treated Oscar Wilde the way it did. Unless, of course, they go to Riyadh and see how neanderthals act.
Is this supposed to be contradicting me in some way? Because it looks like you think it is, but this is basically what I said in the part of my post that you snipped out.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/27 "2013-07-07T06:06:17Z")
Let’s say you divide people up into tops and bottoms (to borrow some terminology from the alternative crowd). You can’t then ask if tops are like men and bottoms are like women or if tops are like heterosexuals and bottoms are like homosexuals. It’s a whole different division and it overlaps other groups. There would be male tops and female tops and gay tops and straight tops - and male bottoms and female bottoms and gay bottoms and straight bottoms.
That said, I don’t see it as a useful division in modern society. As I mentioned above, it’s a hierarchical system - and our society is much more egalitarian. We no longer think that one person in a relationship is submitting to the sexual desire of the other. Our assumption is that relationships are between equal partners. So for us, dividing people into tops and bottoms would be as meaningless as trying to divide a crowd of bisexuals into straights and gays.
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### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/28 "2013-07-07T06:13:19Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> The problem with defining people by their preference for being the receptive partner or the penetrative partner, is that these roles are generally not fixed. In most gay couples, both people take turns in the different roles, particularly when it comes to oral sex. Roles can be a bit more rigid when it comes to anal sex, with some people preferring to always be the “bottom” and others always the “top,” but it’s just as common for partners to switch around.
Some couples don’t engage in anal sex at all and use a combination of oral, intercrural, frottaging and mutual masturbation to get their rocks off.
Frankly, this whole idea that there’s something wrong with gay because it doesn’t tell you top or bottom strikes me as rude and maybe misogynistic. Without knowing my preference, you feel you can’t accurately place me and may treat me as a “man” when you should be treating me as a “woman” or vice versa. Tacky.
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### Author:  [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/29 "2013-07-07T16:13:44Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> If a guy goes to church every Sunday, and always says he’s a Christian, but deep inside he thinks it’s all a bunch of bullshit, is he really a Christian, or an atheist?
No.
Depends on context, I think.
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### Author:  [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/30 "2013-07-07T17:18:27Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#):
>
> intercrural, frottaging
Please forgive me for my ignorance but what are these?
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/31 "2013-07-07T17:29:26Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#):
>
> Please forgive me for my ignorance but what are these?
Frottage is any sort of non-penetrative genital rubbing. Intercrural is a kind of frottage, that involves rubbing the penis between the thighs of the partner.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/32 "2013-07-07T17:37:57Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Frottage is any sort of non-penetrative genital rubbing. Intercrural is a kind of frottage, that involves rubbing the penis between the thighs of the partner.
I was going to explain it with this link:
[noparse][http://www.man2manalliance.org/[/noparse]](http://www.man2manalliance.org/%5B/noparse%5D) \<– I’ve broken the link, because wangs. It’s NSFW.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/33 "2013-07-07T17:51:12Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#):
>
> See, I used to think this way too but it’s not as black and white as that. “Situational homosexuality” occurs in prison and these men are _not_ gay. They are using the closest thing they can find to a woman for their release. That usually comes in the form of the weak, small, isolated, and/or timid prisoners. Once released from prison, if ever, they never resume such activities.
Contrary to popular belief, a lot of men managed to not fuck other guys up the ass when confined to an all male environment for extended periods of time.
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### Author:  [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/34 "2013-07-07T18:17:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Contrary to popular belief, a lot of men managed to not fuck other guys up the ass when confined to an all male environment for extended periods of time.
I didn’t say _all_ men who are in prison engaged in this behavior. Did I?
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/35 "2013-07-07T19:17:14Z")
The OP has completely ignored female sexuality as though it doesn’t exist or doesn’t matter. Gay women are not accounted for in his theory. Of course, to the ancient Greeks women were nothing but baby factories, with no civil rights, no civil liberties, no legal personhood, no nothin. The OP’s theory is completely useless for women.
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### Author:  [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/36 "2013-07-07T19:32:28Z")
> [@Johanna](#):
>
> The OP has completely ignored female sexuality as though it doesn’t exist or doesn’t matter. Gay women are not accounted for in his theory. Of course, to the ancient Greeks women were nothing but baby factories, with no civil rights, no civil liberties, no legal personhood, no nothin. The OP’s theory is completely useless for women.
Can someone _please_ tell me how they do this invisible post-thingy?? ^^ Neat-o. 🆒
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### Author:  [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/37 "2013-07-07T19:37:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Look, it’s pretty simple. If you enjoy sexual acts with the same sex, you’re gay. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
>
> Guy sucking other guy’s dick? Both gay.
> Dude fucking another dude in the ass? Both gay.
This is all incorrect…even outside of jail. Using your definition anyone who has experimented with same-sex partners in college and enjoyed it is gay. Do you really believe that?
What about a guy that would love to get blown by a beautiful woman but can’t score one. If he enjoys getting blown by a guy as a substitute does that make him gay? I don’t think so. Maybe Bi but I’m not sure even that would apply in all situations. Sexual opportunist sounds like a better term.
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### Author:  [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/38 "2013-07-07T20:59:01Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#):
>
> When both the penetrater and the penetrated are described by same term (gay), I think this term is useless.
What, like “heterosexual”? (Same term for both the err… convex and concave). 😕
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/39 "2013-07-07T21:07:22Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#):
>
> This is exactly what I don’t understand. When both the penetrater and the penetrated are described by same term (gay), I think this term is useless. I’ve never seen something like that. Yes, recently I have seen lads in my country who like being penetrated and we would call them something equivalent to “gay”. But I’ve never seen anyone who exclusively likes to penetrate men and if such people exist, I think they should be called something that reflects their masculinity.
So what would you think of the following overhead line? (The speaker, in case anybody wonders, was a guy).
“I’ve been getting lucky a lot lately, and it’s been real cool, I’ve been taking and giving it up the ass both!”
What’s that one, bisexual?
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-being-gay-even-mean/662819/40 "2013-07-08T04:12:08Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#):
>
> But I’ve never seen anyone who exclusively likes to penetrate men and if such people exist, I think they should be called something that reflects their masculinity.
What planet do you live on? What do you think “Top” means? There are MANY gay men who only like to fuck, and you’re saying that doesn’t reflect their masculinity? And what about “bottoms”? Are they any less masculine than the Tops? And what about those of us who are not into anal sex? How do you categorize us regarding masculinity? I’m an orally convex gay man, and my partner is a totally versatile pansexual who is happy to be orally concave with me. But as long as we’re compatible, we’re both simply gay men. And there’s no need to “reflect” our “masculinity” in any way. “Gay man” covers that.
And why do I always have to be the poster child for something?
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