# What does blue/urban America see in the Democrats? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 15, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865 "2020-04-15T17:22:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/41 "2020-04-17T16:57:55Z")
The thing that appeals to me about the Democratic/progressive platform is that it doesn’t rest on idealistic “shoulds” as much as the conservative approach does. Progressives have ideals, don’t get me wrong, but they tend to be aimed at society as a whole rather than at individuals. Progressives accept that individuals will always come up short somehow. But they believe that a strong society lessens the cumulative impact of those individual shortcomings. For instance, I think most reasonable people can agree that no one should have kids if they can’t afford to take care of them. Progressives don’t assume that beating people over the head with this message is enough to stop them from fucking, though. They assume there will always been some segment of the population that has babies regardless of their financial situation, and thus they advocate for strong social welfare programs that can help pick up the slack when these individuals mess up. There’s certainly a place for codes of conduct directed at individuals, as well as preaching and lecturing. I think most progressives would agree with this. But they don’t think that sanctimony alone is sufficient to help society run optimally. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/42 "2020-04-17T19:55:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > but when it comes to “keeping people safe from gun violence,” most gun supporters are in favor of the same thing - they want guns \*because \*they think guns stop gun violence (in a paradoxical but logical way.) Not a single Trump voter would say, “We want more gun ownership because we love those Sandy Hooks, those Las Vegas, we want more Columbines.” They tout gun ownership as a way of being able to \*terminate \*such mass shootings much more easily (the “good guy with a gun stopping bad guy with a gun” logic.) I have a different perspective here, which comes from a misspent youth supporting and voting for Libertarian candidates. I’m sure opinions are diverse, but a lot of the folks I interacted with both believed that the “good guy with the gun” could help allay gun violence, but even if he couldn’t, it is worth the societal risks to keep the rights. This perspective doesn’t mean, “We want more gun ownership because we love those Sandy Hooks, those Las Vegas, we want more Columbines.” But it does mean, “I’d rather live in a society with those Sandy Hooks, Las Vegases, and Columbines” than in one where our rights are abrogated. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/43 "2020-04-17T20:24:48Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The thing that appeals to me about the Democratic/progressive platform is that it doesn’t rest on idealistic “shoulds” as much as the conservative approach does. Progressives have ideals, don’t get me wrong, but they tend to be aimed at society as a whole rather than at individuals. Progressives accept that individuals will always come up short somehow. But they believe that a strong society lessens the cumulative impact of those individual shortcomings. > > For instance, I think most reasonable people can agree that no one should have kids if they can’t afford to take care of them. Progressives don’t assume that beating people over the head with this message is enough to stop them from fucking, though. They assume there will always been some segment of the population that has babies regardless of their financial situation, and thus they advocate for strong social welfare programs that can help pick up the slack when these individuals mess up. There’s certainly a place for codes of conduct directed at individuals, as well as preaching and lecturing. I think most progressives would agree with this. But they don’t think that sanctimony alone is sufficient to help society run optimally. I think it’s a combination of things. One is “what is the most important goal”? For liberals it’s “How do we create the best overall outcomes while infringing as little as possible the rights that are most important to us.” Under that rubric, the concepts of “punishing those who deserve to be punished” and “rewarding those who are deserving of reward” are not among our most important goals. So, for example, if creating a program that gives people who need it income, housing, education, and health care benefits some number of “undeserving” people, then so be it, so long as overall society is better and a significant proportion of people are benefiting. This is an interesting contrast with Do Not Taunt’s observation that some gun rights supporters would prefer to live in a world with occasional massacres of innocents rather than infringe gun ownership rights in any way. Forced busing as attempted in the late 1960s and early 1970s to desegregate public schools was working. In fact, it’s the only thing that has actually improved the problem of segregated schools and failing schools in “inner city” neighborhoods. But politicians backed off from that because of the backlash. White people’s fear of forced busing trumped the greater good. UltraVires’s description of benefit programs as “treating people like cattle” is from a liberal’s point of view entirely self-serving, without any empirical support. The fact is that giving money to people who need money and giving housing to people who need housing and giving education to people who need education does benefit those people, and to the extent that it doesn’t benefit them enough, it’s because they haven’t been given enough. Yes, maybe there is some small percentage of people who will never be lifted over the hump. So what? First, it’s worth it to help everyone who can be permanently lifted up, or their children or grandchildren. Second, helping a person is helping that person, period. That analogy to domestic animals is a baffling, inhumane, and immoral viewpoint. If you’ve made someone’s life 10 percent better, you’ve made it 10 percent better, which is better than 0 percent, even if you never achieve 100 percent. Third, conservatives are content to make these decisions without ever trying to live in the shoes of the people who need help. They will wax on like UltraVires without ever trying to look at the comprehensive picture of why there is an underclass and all the factors that put them in that position and keep them in that position. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/44 "2020-04-20T13:26:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The thing that appeals to me about the Democratic/progressive platform is that it doesn’t rest on idealistic “shoulds” as much as the conservative approach does. Progressives have ideals, don’t get me wrong, but they tend to be aimed at society as a whole rather than at individuals. Progressives accept that individuals will always come up short somehow. But they believe that a strong society lessens the cumulative impact of those individual shortcomings. > > For instance, I think most reasonable people can agree that no one should have kids if they can’t afford to take care of them. Progressives don’t assume that beating people over the head with this message is enough to stop them from fucking, though. They assume there will always been some segment of the population that has babies regardless of their financial situation, and thus they advocate for strong social welfare programs that can help pick up the slack when these individuals mess up. There’s certainly a place for codes of conduct directed at individuals, as well as preaching and lecturing. I think most progressives would agree with this. But they don’t think that sanctimony alone is sufficient to help society run optimally. I think there’s a certain element of… not sour grapes, and not quite envy, but something similar present in the conservative mindset. It’s the feeling that you’ve scrimped, saved and done your dead-level damnedest to do things right, and it’s been a hard road, but you’re finally successful. And now you see some other people not doing that, or doing it in parts, and having the government bail them out. It’s frustration and annoyance that you’re expected to take the hard road, and someone else doesn’t, and they get bailed out… out of your own tax money. Using the birth control example- if you’re the kind of person who didn’t fuck around, always used birth control, even when it meant not getting laid, and you provide for your kids, even when it’s tough to do so and make ends meet while paying your taxes, wouldn’t it be frustrating to see someone else fuck around, not use birth control, get knocked up/have multiple baby mamas, and then see the government foot the bill for all that, out of YOUR tax money? Some of us are more pragmatic about it and figure that as offensive as the parents’ lack of responsibility may be, the child doesn’t deserve that life of poverty, and that it’s better for society in the long run if we foot that bill. But I can see how others might feel that the parents deserve a huge dose of condemnation and maybe even judicial punishment for such irresponsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/45 "2020-04-20T13:49:21Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think there’s a certain element of… not sour grapes, and not quite envy, but something similar present in the conservative mindset. It’s the feeling that you’ve scrimped, saved and done your dead-level damnedest to do things right, and it’s been a hard road, but you’re finally successful. And now you see some other people not doing that, or doing it in parts, and having the government bail them out. It’s frustration and annoyance that you’re expected to take the hard road, and someone else doesn’t, and they get bailed out… out of your own tax money. Christians will know it as the [parable](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+15%3A11-32&version=NET) of the [prodigal son](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son). The elder son is miffed when his father spends extravagantly on the younger son, who has wasted his life and treasure. The elder wants “fairness”, which is a common human desire, but the lesson is love is most important. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/46 "2020-04-20T14:09:18Z")
Also the parable of the workers ([Matthew 20:1-16](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20%3A1-16&version=NIV)), where a landowner went at sunup to hire workers for his field, and then again multiple times during the day to hire more workers, until the last ones worked for only an hour before quitting time… and then paid them all a standard day’s wages. The ones who worked all day complained about the unfairness, even though they got a day’s wages for a day’s work. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/47 "2020-04-20T15:47:03Z")
FWIW, I’m not saying I agree with what I said above, but that it’s the mindset of a lot of the conservatives I know. And it’s compounded by the fact that a lot of the time, the people on one side or the other of that line seem to have different skin colors. It makes for labeling one group or the other as the out-group easier when they can be painted with a broad behavioral brush, even if it’s not intentionally or hatefully racist. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/48 "2020-04-20T16:38:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Also the parable of the workers ([Matthew 20:1-16](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20%3A1-16&version=NIV)), where a landowner went at sunup to hire workers for his field, and then again multiple times during the day to hire more workers, until the last ones worked for only an hour before quitting time… and then paid them all a standard day’s wages. The ones who worked all day complained about the unfairness, even though they got a day’s wages for a day’s work. Democrats would side with the ones who worked all day, and tell them they need to form a union and/or sue their employer. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/49 "2020-04-20T20:21:37Z")
I know the thread title is “What does blue/urban America see in the Democrats?” But the OP cited a superb and empathetic insight from a liberal into the mindset of conservatives and asked for this: > [@](#): > > Can someone write up an opposite version of what Ann Hedonia did - write about what explains the urban/blue voter mindset, in a way that Trump voters can sympathize and relate to? \*\* Why no conservative takers? **Ultravires**? Shodan\*\*? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/50 "2020-04-20T22:23:09Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I know the thread title is “What does blue/urban America see in the Democrats?” But the OP cited a superb and empathetic insight from a liberal into the mindset of conservatives and asked for this: > > **Why no conservative takers? Ultravires? Shodan**? I’d usually be willing to take on a devil’s advocate sort of position but, from a practical standpoint, I can’t see any particularly logic behind the breakout of beliefs of either party and that renders the task impossible, unless you feel like writing a few hundred pages of text. Let’s take “small government” as an example. I want to convince a Republican that Democratic policy is a better fit for them on small government, so I bring up privacy rights and how the Democrats are more suspicious of the FBI, police, government access to personal data, etc. Definitely, the Democrats are more small government on that one. And then I talk about abortion. Democrats are small government, they think that you should have personal responsibility and the government shouldn’t be managing you; I bring up the “bomb them from afar” military policy of Democrats versus the “boots on the ground” military policy of Republicans. Democrats are small government, they just take the cheap and easy mode of telling people to fuck off rather than going and occupying and owning territory abroad; And so on. I go through the full policy of all the Democratic platform and make a thorough and convincing argument for all of them that Democrats are more small government than Republicans. What will I have actually achieved in the end, now that I have written 200 pages and thoroughly analyzed each policy? Firstly, I’ll have spent a lot of time writing something that no one will read. But if someone does actually read it, the odds are that the result is that they become a centrist/indepedent, decide that “small government” isn’t actually what they _mean_ when they say that they’re a “small government” theorist, or come out saying that “small government” just isn’t the thing they care about most and so none of that matters. I mean, I could sit down and explain to you why Republican policy exactly fits all the ideals and dreams of Democratic philosophy. Would you really be convinced? Probably not. And that’s always going to be true when philosophy was never a component of how you got to where you are and when it isn’t how the party got to where it is. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/51 "2020-04-21T00:51:25Z")
**Sage Rat** , not sure why such a post would have to focus on small government vs. big government. Maybe because the OP hid the **Ann Hedonia** post he refers to, most people didn’t read it? I agree with the OP that AH, a self-described liberal, did an excellent job of getting into a conservative mindset and explaining it without stereotypes, snarks, or insults. I can’t volunteer myself for the job because I skew liberal. I’m wondering if a conservative can mirror what Ann Hedonia did. Maybe they can’t. Here’s the post: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia > I’m going to give it shot and try to get into the head of the middle America Trump voter, with a little empathy. > It’s Easter Sunday, 2020. > > You are a lifelong citizen of Smalltown USA. > > Your church and religion is very important to you. You believe that the hand of God is behind the success of your farm or small business, even as you have become less and less successful. Your feel that every time you open your mail, it’s a tax bill or notice of a new regulation that costs you money. If you are a farmer, there are regulations about what you can grow and how much you can sell it for. You may not even own your land, you lease it and are tied into stringent rules that put the well-being of you and your family below that of prairie dogs and snakes. If you own a small business, there are rules about who you can hire and fire, the size and layout of your store, everything. Rules made by rich men living in coastal cities thousands of miles away. Men that care nothing about you or your family. Their solution is always another government program that “gives” you back part of what was taken from you. Then they make fun of you for not clamoring for their crumbs and accuse you of voting against your self-interest. > > And they are always accusing you of racism, even though your closest friends and neighbors, the family that owns the next farm over, are black. > > Even though you are successful, it’s hard. You succeed only through the grace of God. And you truly believe that it wouldn’t be nearly so hard if the government would step back. > > This year it’s worse. You’ve been regulated out of your church. The government has taken Easter away from you. Because there is a pandemic affecting the coastal cities, the places that are the root of all evil. And the government has scientists and experts that are telling you that you can’t go to church because of this, even though you don’t know or don’t know anyone that knows someone that’s been sick. > So you stay home from church, the place you want to be more than any other place in the world. > You turn on the TV to watch the news, and see a bunch of liberal newscasters making fun of you and calling you a murderer for wanting to go to church. Your President (more on him later) wanted you to be able to go, but the liberal newscasters made fun of him and called him a murderer, too. > > Then the news ends and the network begins their Easter evening programming. The Greatest Story Ever Told? The Sound of Music? - No, it’s Jesus Christ Superstar, a musical about your Lord and Savior. You watch in horror as a bunch of multicultural hippies spray paint “Jesus” all over the set and generally portray Jesus as the leader of a hippie cult. You watch as Jesus is caressed by a prostitute. You are further outraged by the sympathetic portrayal of a black Judas that looks like a gang member. You’re outraged that this is now normal. You’re outraged that your kids seem to think this production, while a little “out there”, is great because it makes religion more accessible. You’re outraged that your grandkids love it. You want the America of your youth back. > > Three years ago, you elected a President that claimed to understand you. But even he is no match for the forces that have been working to undermine you and your America. Because here is, surrounded by the rich elites you hate, telling you you can’t go to church in a tone that makes it clear that he’s speaking under duress. And he’s trying his best to signal to you that he’s being held hostage. But he’s still your strong man, look at how he gets in some nasty jabs at his captors. > > And he was winning. Look at how he’s defied the FBI and Congress. Look at how he’s smacking down all those liberal governors that are trying to take your freedom. You cheer every time he fires another rich elite that’s been sent to control him. You can’t wait to vote for him again so he can finish the job. Now they’ve tried to destroy the economy he has built back up just to take him out. But you won’t let them. You want his autocracy and you want him to grab as much power for himself as he can. Because you really do believe that only he can fix this. > > —-end empathy—- > > That’s what we are up against and it’s formidable and multi-faceted. Blaming it on racism and misogyny, while it may be true in some sense, is a vast oversimplification of a deeper dissatisfaction and will lead to a Democratic loss in November. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/52 "2020-04-21T04:37:09Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > There is where you lose people like me who are rural, conservative Republicans. > […] > We care about people as well. > But rant mode off, we care about people every bit as much as your side does. Every.bit.as.much. No you don’t. You care about yourself, people close to you, and people like you. We can read your posts. You are incapable of caring about or even understanding people who aren’t like you. Furthermore, you project that onto us. It simply isn’t true. e.g. > [@The media is driving our defensive actions not science!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-is-driving-our-defensive-actions-not-science/851355/72): > > And sure AIDS killed tons of people in Africa. But that’s “over there” not here. Call it racist or xenophobic, but that is how people react to things. You ever listen to the radio and hear that an earthquake hit and killed 3,000 people and you lean in and hear, “in Pakistan” and you change the channel? If they had said “in California” you would have said “oh my God!” and read all of the articles when you got home. It is not because you hate Pakistanis or brown people in general. People feel what hits their own backyard. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865/53 "2020-04-21T17:27:32Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I can’t volunteer myself for the job because I skew liberal. I’m wondering if a conservative can mirror what Ann Hedonia did. Maybe they can’t. Eh, I’ll give it a shot, being conservative, despite also being the OP myself: \* * * * You’re a liberal living in San Francisco (or Seattle, or NYC, or Boston, or Chicago…) You grew up in a conservative Christian family, actually, but never felt the religion. On the contrary, it was rammed down your throat by your parents, who forced you to go to church whether you liked it or not, and gave scolding or dismissive replies any time you brought up tough questions like why God’s existence seem to have such weak evidence, or isn’t it excessively severe for people to burn in Hell for trillions and trillions of years, or why so many Christians live a hypocritical life. When you asked pastors or other Christians these same questions, you got no satisfactory responses either, only a stream of cliches and trite platitudes with no substance behind them. To top it off, these same Christians spread all kinds of fake-news and conspiracy theories on Facebook, along with chain emails, while at the same time making strident posts about evidence for Jesus’ resurrection - and also false prophets or others who make utterly unfounded prophecies or “declarations” in the name of faith. You are deeply anxious about climate change and the heating of the planet, knowing it’s a ticking clock, yet conservatives dismiss it as a hoax. You consider it essential for a woman to have access to abortion (since the financial, emotional and social costs of an unwanted pregnancy are immense,) but Republicans want to ban the practice as much as they can. You know firsthand how bosses and companies can exploit workers, but Republicans oppose labor unionizing. You lived for a while in Canada and shake your head over how the U.S. healthcare system charges $40,000 for an appendectomy when Canadians get something much better. You are appalled at the Columbines, Sandy Hooks, Orlando, Virginia Techs, Las Vegas shootings, but the response of the 2nd-Amendment crowd is “more guns.” You see the U.S. defense budget of $700 billion a year - more than the rest of the world spends on their militaries \*combined \*- and keep thinking, “why can’t we take a big chunk of that and spent it on much more urgent needs like teacher pay, hospitals, the homeless, scholarships, etc. instead?” All of this was bad enough for you before 2016. You were already a reliably blue voter; you voted Clinton, Gore, Kerry, and Obama. But now you watch as _ **Donald Trump** _ rises to the top of the Republican primaries. Is this a…joke?? At first Trump’s success is actually cause for liberal relief and some schadenfreude; he should be the weakest of all GOP candidates, makes him easiest for Hillary to defeat. But then Trump consistently remains within only 2-5% behind Hillary (why isn’t she beating him by 40%?!), and any relief is replaced by deep-seated worry. And then Election Night 2016 happens, and the worst fears are confirmed. Nor has it escaped your attention that the party that blasted Bill Clinton for his affairs in the 1990s has now elected Trump to the White House. You aren’t exactly a fan of the Democratic Party - the big tent with all its infighting, constant mind-changing, factions going at each other - but they are much better in your opinion than the Republicans. You find that Bernie lines up most closely with your views, but since the DNC would never let Bernie win, you had to reluctantly go along with Hillary in 2016 and Biden this time around. * * * [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-blue-urban-america-see-in-the-democrats/851865.md?page=2)