# What does Chanukah teach us about Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690 "2005-12-08T16:01:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/1 "2005-12-08T16:01:56Z")
Every year around this time we Jews celebrate the fact that some of our ancestors participated in a sucessful insurgency. Israel had come under the control of a Western power (the Greeks through a Syrian puppet) and were imposing a set of then Western values upon our ancestral tribe. A campaign began to drive off the Western power. At first it was through terrorism, killing those who were cooperating with the Westerners or taking on their values, and it soon evolved into a more traditional war. They won, probably just by convincing the Greeks that it wasn’t worth their on-going effort. Counter-insurgencies tilted the balance a few times after but finally those who believed in the autonomy of the native culture (“the pious”) prevailed. Of course within a couple of generations they were Hellenized and corrupt and barabarically evil and invited the Romans in to settle their own squabbles ending the Kingdom of Israel. Of course since it was us and our right to have our own culture we lionize these brave soldiers and their insurgent hammer-strikes. Any parallels with today in the Arab world, at least as seen through their eyes? No, the West is not scarificing pigs in holy mosques, but the perception is that the West is imposing its values and culture upon the Arab world, albeit in more insiduous ways. We must realize that the terror and insurgent groups percieve themselves cast the same as the Maccabees, but in much more interconnected world. Comments? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/2 "2005-12-08T16:21:47Z")
Well, it wasn’t “the Greeks through a Syrian puppet”. It was an independent kingdom, founded by one of Alexander the Great’s generals, Seleucus, whose capital was in Syria (Antioch) And Judea had been part of the Seleucid Empire for 160 years by the Maccabee revolt. Also, the Maccabee revolt was just part of a whole series of revolts and incursions against the Seleucids. So in that way, it’s not so similar. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/3 "2005-12-08T17:28:12Z")
This ground has been plowed before, for example there’s and essay by PJ O’Rourke, titled something like “Our 2,000 Year Old Middle East Policy Problem.” I think its in _Give War a Chance_. Why even look so far as the Macabbees? How did we win the American Revolution? With guerrila warfare (we practically invented it and it was considered distinctly unsporting), economic terrorism (shipping unsound goods to England, such as faked nutmegs), and the inherent advantage of fighting on home soil against a foreign army – which was under the orders of a leader that took the conflict just a little too personally. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/4 "2005-12-08T18:34:02Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Well, it wasn’t “the Greeks through a Syrian puppet”. It was an independent kingdom, founded by one of Alexander the Great’s generals, Seleucus, whose capital was in Syria (Antioch) And Judea had been part of the Seleucid Empire for 160 years by the Maccabee revolt. Also, the Maccabee revolt was just part of a whole series of revolts and incursions against the Seleucids. Curse you, **Captain Amazing**! You got here with the nitpick I was going to make first. Just for that I will, in the spirit of vengeance, nitpick your nitpick :). Actually the area of Judaea had been a Ptolemaic possesion from at least 301. It only was taken definiteively by the Seleucids after Antiochus III’s victory at Panion in 200. So at the time of the Jewish revolt it had been in Seleucid hands some thirty-odd years. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/5 "2005-12-08T23:57:48Z")
Well, there was the matter of more effecient use of oil. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/6 "2005-12-09T00:33:09Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > Well, there was the matter of more effecient use of oil. 😉 I’ve always wondered if it wasn’t some private who got drunk on Greek booze and didn’t own up to not counting the oil jars as he was ordered to do. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/7 "2005-12-09T00:38:02Z")
Wait a minute. Saddam is Jewish? Who knew??? ;j ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/8 "2005-12-09T03:33:29Z")
> [@Hello Again](#): > > How did we win the American Revolution? With guerrila warfare (we practically invented it and it was considered distinctly unsporting), economic terrorism (shipping unsound goods to England, such as faked nutmegs), and the inherent advantage of fighting on home soil against a foreign army – which was under the orders of a leader that took the conflict just a little too personally. No. The French defeated the Royal Navy in the Chesepeake, cutting off Corwallis and allowing his army to be cornered by Washington in a conventional battle. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/9 "2005-12-09T04:12:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > No. The French defeated the Royal Navy in the Chesepeake, cutting off Corwallis and allowing his army to be cornered by Washington in a conventional battle. The _French_? Surely you jest. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/10 "2005-12-09T04:51:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > No. The French defeated the Royal Navy in the Chesepeake, cutting off Corwallis and allowing his army to be cornered by Washington in a conventional battle. Isn’t that all true? What are you “no”-ing about? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/11 "2005-12-09T05:18:23Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > Isn’t that all true? What are you “no”-ing about? "How did we win the American Revolution? With guerrila warfare… " No, we did not win with guerilla warfare nor did we invent it. The French defeated the Royal Navy in the… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/12 "2005-12-09T15:50:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > No. The French defeated the Royal Navy in the Chesepeake, cutting off Corwallis and allowing his army to be cornered by Washington in a conventional battle. At the very end. But that’s like saying the North won the Civil War because Grant trapped Lee at Appomattox. What do you think happened in the years leading up to Yorktown? That the Revolution was really just another France-England war? ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/13 "2005-12-09T18:47:57Z")
> [@Hello Again](#): > > How did we win the American Revolution? With guerrila warfare (we practically invented it and it was considered distinctly unsporting), … Guerilla warfare has been around ever since there were organized armies for unorganized foes to fight against. I twas at best a minor part of the American Revolution and played little part militarily in wining against the British. It may have done a fair amount in rousing and keeping up anti-British support by civiliains while the conventional army was working at getting up to par. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/14 "2005-12-09T19:14:15Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Wait a minute. Saddam is Jewish? Who knew??? ;j Well, personally I’m waiting with glee for the day when DNA analysis gets sophisticated enough to tell EXACTLY who people’s ancestors were. I mean come on, Islam hasn’t been around all that long in the grand scheme of things, so Saddam’s ancestors may very well have been Jewish, no? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/15 "2005-12-09T19:51:12Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No, the West is not scarificing pigs in holy mosques, but the perception is that the West is imposing its values and culture upon the Arab world The greeks offended by the ancient Jews by sacrificing pigs on holy sites, and _preventing_ the locals from carrying out their culture. American soldiers are \*allowing]/i] the locals to choose their own culture.And millions of Iraqis participate in the elections, proving that the majority want to take an active part in determining their culture. Unlike the story of Chanuka–The insurgents aren’t defending their country’s freedom against a western attacker. They are trying to prevent their country from winning its freedom to determine its own culture, and return it to Saddam’s tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/16 "2005-12-09T20:14:35Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > They are trying to prevent their country from winning its freedom to determine its own culture, and return it to Saddam’s tyranny. Perhaps intensely religious people would be afraid that people would like to chose to have a less religious culture. Some folks in the USA feel that way. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/17 "2005-12-09T23:18:48Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > "How did we win the American Revolution? With guerrila warfare… " > > No, we did not win with guerilla warfare nor did we invent it. The French defeated the Royal Navy in the… If it weren’t for the help from the French, we Yanks would be speaking English today. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/18 "2005-12-09T23:22:56Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > Well, personally I’m waiting with glee for the day when DNA analysis gets sophisticated enough to tell EXACTLY who people’s ancestors were. I mean come on, Islam hasn’t been around all that long in the grand scheme of things, so Saddam’s ancestors may very well have been Jewish, no? I would be very odd if some of his ancestors were not Jewish. But it’s unlikely that he has unbroken maternal line leading back to that most recent Jewish ancestor. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/19 "2005-12-10T01:07:00Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > If it weren’t for the help from the French, we Yanks would be speaking English today. :rolleyes: Damn straight. The only question is WW’s I and II. Either the Kaiser would be buried outside a retirement home in Miami and Hitler living in an Austrian Old Painter’s Home, or the remaining world would all speak German. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690/20 "2005-12-11T01:58:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What do you think happened in the years leading up to Yorktown? That the Revolution was really just another France-England war? Other than providing money, the guns, the gunpowder, clothing, food, direct military and naval intervention, diplomatic intervention encouraging various other European nations to aid us, taking military actions in alternate theaters that more directly threatened critical British interests - the sugar islands in the Caribbean, Gibraltar with Spain, what contribution did the French _really_ make to the American Revolution? No, it’s not _all_ about France v. Britain round 4, but the American Revolution without France is kind of like WWII without the USSR. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-chanukah-teach-us-about-iraq/334690.md?page=2)