# What does "Christian" really mean? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163 "2007-06-07T18:53:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/41 "2007-06-08T09:54:00Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Quite. And let’s remember that the next time we all debate Islam and terrorism, oppression of women etc etc and the ‘no true Muslim’ argument is trotted out by apologists. Religions are what the self-identified religious do. [/QUOTE] Let’s also remember that when Messianic Jews are denounced as not being true Jews. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/42 "2007-06-08T09:55:12Z")
[QUOTE=Napier] \>Then there are Christians who believe you don’t have to perform good works, such as feed the hungry, clothe the naked, or visit those in prison. You don’t have to love your enemies, turn the other cheek, give all you have to the poor, or offer your cloak to the man who steals your tunic. All you have to do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is the Path to Eternal Salvation. By faith alone they will be saved. \>Those Christians disgust me. I think the technical term for those Christians is “Protestants”. See [Sola fide - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide) [/QUOTE] Uh yeah, too bad there are no benevolent or charitable Protestants out there. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/43 "2007-06-08T10:12:01Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Let’s also remember that when Messianic Jews are denounced as not being true Jews. [/QUOTE] For sure. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/44 "2007-06-08T11:56:29Z")
It is my understanding that a Christian believes that Jesus was the Christ(The Chosen one) or the Messiah. If not they would be called Jesusians. If one considers them selves a follower of Jesus ,then that person can call him or herself Christian as they accept that Jesus was the Christ. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/45 "2007-06-08T12:19:22Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] No there isn’t. God doesn’t exist if you don’t believe he does. [/QUOTE] The great god Tinkerbell? ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/46 "2007-06-08T13:51:09Z")
I really don’t care what anyone calls themself whatever their religeon. I don’t worry about their beliefs except to try not insult those beliefs… usually. I say usually because I have had evangellistic persons try to convince me that I am wrong and should follow the glory of whatever they believe. If they do it in the same way that the LDS people did to me a couple of years ago, I’ll stop and chat and I’ll usually enjoy the exchange. If they use the tactics that another group used on me in a mall a bunch of years before that… well, I get testy… and very sarcastic. I didn’t enjoy being surrounded by idiots blocking my movements telling me that I was going to hell. They finally left after I told them exactly what I thought about them, their religeon, and their God. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/47 "2007-06-08T14:02:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Shakers believe in an additional Christ, as you noted- Mother Ann; > > Christian Science claims that matter is illusory, thus denying that Jesus has come in the flesh, a doctrinal test laid down in I John. This doesn’t answer the question I asked, however – I’ve definitely, more than once, heard people declare that Mormons aren’t “Christian”. I can’t actually say I’ve heard that said of Christian Scientists (despite their own name) or of Shakers, or of any other group. Has anyone else heard of any other group that does, in fact, believe in the divinity of Christ and accepts much of the associated theology , but which holds some otherwise divergent views explicitly being called “not Christian”? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/48 "2007-06-08T14:04:33Z")
[QUOTE=Napier] I think the technical term for those Christians is “Protestants”. [/QUOTE] Far too broad a brush. _Sola fide_ does not preclude the requirement to follow the commands of Jesus to minister to those in need. It is a specific theological concept regarding what is needed for salvation and I suggest that a very limited number of Protestants actually embrace the parody you have described. (Some do and I have known some of them, but, again, your brush is too broad.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/49 "2007-06-08T14:12:30Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] This doesn’t answer the question I asked, however – I’ve definitely, more than once, heard people declare that Mormons aren’t “Christian”. I can’t actually say I’ve heard that said of Christian Scientists (despite their own name) or of Shakers, or of any other group. Has anyone else heard of any other group that does, in fact, believe in the divinity of Christ and accepts much of the associated theology , but which holds some otherwise divergent views explicitly being called “not Christian”? [/QUOTE] Catholics. The specific claims against the CoJCoLDS (and, occasionally, its related groups), is the way in which some doctrine directly violates the Nicene Creed. I am not much into determining who gets to call themselves Christian, but among those who do claim that right, there are some very spoecific differences in the theology of Protestant Christianity from Mormon theology. (I have not encountered Catholics claiming that Mormons are not Christian, but there are probably elements of friction in Utah that are not displayed in Michigan and Ohio. The other side of the coin is that I have known several Catholics who lived in Utah who described anti-Catholic harrassment in largely Mormon villages. That may play a part in their conflicts.) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/50 "2007-06-08T14:13:27Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] This doesn’t answer the question I asked, however – I’ve definitely, more than once, heard people declare that Mormons aren’t “Christian”. I can’t actually say I’ve heard that said of Christian Scientists (despite their own name) or of Shakers, or of any other group. Has anyone else heard of any other group that does, in fact, believe in the divinity of Christ and accepts much of the associated theology , but which holds some otherwise divergent views explicitly being called “not Christian”? [/QUOTE] Perhaps it’s just too historically recent and the founding myth so blatantly absurd to have acquired the patina of respectability time gives this sort of thing? Divergence about obscure theological points are one thing, ‘now you see them now you don’t golden plates’ and angels with joke names spouting manifestly ridiculous anthropology and archaeology is something else. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/51 "2007-06-08T14:23:18Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] This doesn’t answer the question I asked, however – I’ve definitely, more than once, heard people declare that Mormons aren’t “Christian”. I can’t actually say I’ve heard that said of Christian Scientists (despite their own name) or of Shakers, or of any other group. Has anyone else heard of any other group that does, in fact, believe in the divinity of Christ and accepts much of the associated theology , but which holds some otherwise divergent views explicitly being called “not Christian”? [/QUOTE] The Church of the New Jerusalem (Swedenborg)- I can’t recall some specific doctrinal issues but for many C’tians the visions & spirit messages to Emmanuel Swedenborg are disturbing enough. However, it is a denomination accepted in the National Council of Churches. Unity School of Christianity- which teaches attaining Christ-consciousness, mind science & reincarnation but focuses on Jesus as their Main Man. The Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity (aka The Unification Church aka The Moonies) teach that Jesus is the spiritual Savior but that He did not complete His work & thus the Lord of the Second Advent (finally announced to be Rev. Moon a few years ago after decades of coyly hinting) is come to complete the redemption of humanity by creating the Perfect Family. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/52 "2007-06-08T14:25:11Z")
I gotta repeat this, I guess. I’m not asking _why_ people call Mormon non-Christian. I’m wondering if any other groups are placed in this same category. **tomndeb** answered that, but it’s an answer I know, and which has already been given in this thread. I shoulda excepted Cathpolics as well as Mormons when I asked for other groups. But he went on to give reasons, which i wasn’t angling for. **tagos** just gave reasons. Once again : Aside from Catholics and Mormons (and variations on them), have any other apparently-Christian-to-the-really-casual-viewer groups (such as the Shakers and the Christian Scientists, and any others) been called “not Christian” ? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/53 "2007-06-08T14:28:54Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] I gotta repeat this, I guess. I’m not asking _why_ people call Mormon non-Christian. I’m wondering if any other groups are placed in this same category. **tomndeb** answered that, but it’s an answer I know, and which has already been given in this thread. I shoulda excepted Cathpolics as well as Mormons when I asked for other groups. But he went on to give reasons, which i wasn’t angling for. **tagos** just gave reasons. [/QUOTE] Good point. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/54 "2007-06-08T14:33:55Z")
Ah, but **tagos** , I see that you did give answers while I was posting. Many thanks. But have any of those specifically been called “not Christian” by anybody? (Apropos of nothing – the Swedenborgians used to have a bookstore here in Back Bay Boston, but it closed just a couple of years ago. Kinda sad – i think it had been open forever before it shut down. Insufficient interest.) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/55 "2007-06-08T14:41:02Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] Ah, but **tagos** , I see that you did give answers while I was posting. Many thanks. But have any of those specifically been called “not Christian” by anybody? (Apropos of nothing – the Swedenborgians used to have a bookstore here in Back Bay Boston, but it closed just a couple of years ago. Kinda sad – i think it had been open forever before it shut down. Insufficient interest.) [/QUOTE] In my neck of the woods when I was a Christian Jehovah’s Witnesses would not have been considered Christians for pretty much the same reason. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/56 "2007-06-08T14:42:59Z")
\>Sola fide does not preclude the requirement to follow the commands of Jesus to minister to those in need. It is a specific theological concept regarding what is needed for salvation and I suggest that a very limited number of Protestants actually embrace the parody you have described. This is an objection I didn’t anticipate, certainly. Are you saying that the statment that “only faith” (direct translation from the Latin) “is needed for salvation” (as you put it) is different from the statement that “All you have to do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is the Path to Eternal Salvation. By faith alone they will be saved.” which my post answered? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/57 "2007-06-08T15:08:16Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] Once again : Aside from Catholics and Mormons (and variations on them), have any other apparently-Christian-to-the-really-casual-viewer groups (such as the Shakers and the Christian Scientists, and any others) been called “not Christian” ? [/QUOTE] Yeah, “Christian Scientists are neither Christians nor Scientists.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/58 "2007-06-08T15:20:49Z")
[QUOTE=Napier] \>Sola fide does not preclude the requirement to follow the commands of Jesus to minister to those in need. It is a specific theological concept regarding what is needed for salvation and I suggest that a very limited number of Protestants actually embrace the parody you have described. This is an objection I didn’t anticipate, certainly. Are you saying that the statment that “only faith” (direct translation from the Latin) “is needed for salvation” (as you put it) is different from the statement that “All you have to do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is the Path to Eternal Salvation. By faith alone they will be saved.” which my post answered? [/QUOTE] My specific reaction was to the way you phrased your response to answer this post: > [@](#): > > Then there are Christians who believe you don’t have to perform good works, such as feed the hungry, clothe the naked, or visit those in prison. You don’t have to love your enemies, turn the other cheek, give all you have to the poor, or offer your cloak to the man who steals your tunic. All you have to do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is the Path to Eternal Salvation. By faith alone they will be saved. I do not know many Protestants who believe that you “do not need to perform good works.” Most of the Protestants I know say that one cannot “earn” heaven through good works, but that if one genuinely accepts that one believes in Jesus, one is compelled by that belief to perform those good works. As posted, your response gave the appearance that Protestants, as a group, did not feel that they needed to perform good works, merely to believe. I suspect that the actual beliefs are considerably more complex and nuanced than that, (although I have known a very few Protestants who declared “I believe” and then ignored all the other statements by Jesus). ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/59 "2007-06-08T15:22:12Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] I gotta repeat this, I guess. I’m not asking _why_ people call Mormon non-Christian. I’m wondering if any other groups are placed in this same category. **tomndeb** answered that, but it’s an answer I know, and which has already been given in this thread. I shoulda excepted Cathpolics as well as Mormons when I asked for other groups. But he went on to give reasons, which i wasn’t angling for. **tagos** just gave reasons. Once again : Aside from Catholics and Mormons (and variations on them), have any other apparently-Christian-to-the-really-casual-viewer groups (such as the Shakers and the Christian Scientists, and any others) been called “not Christian” ? [/QUOTE] Yes. Including Christian Scientists, Seventh Day Adventists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163/60 "2007-06-08T15:27:44Z")
[QUOTE=Napier] \>Then there are Christians who believe you don’t have to perform good works, such as feed the hungry, clothe the naked, or visit those in prison. You don’t have to love your enemies, turn the other cheek, give all you have to the poor, or offer your cloak to the man who steals your tunic. All you have to do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is the Path to Eternal Salvation. By faith alone they will be saved. \>Those Christians disgust me. I think the technical term for those Christians is “Protestants”. See [Sola fide - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide) [/QUOTE] From your link: > [@](#): > > Protestants have historically summarized their view with the formula: "Justification is by faith alone, but not by the faith that is alone [that is, not by a supposed faith that has no accompanying works] I.e. Protestants (at least some of them) would argue that faith isn’t faith if it doesn’t result in works. If you really believe Jesus is Lord, you’re going to take seriously what he commanded and try to live up to it. If you really believe he is the Path to Salvation, you’re going to follow that path, not just point to it and say, “Yeah, that’s the way.” “Faith vs. works” has been one of the Great Debates in Christian theology (and got a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=420130) here about a month ago). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-christian-really-mean/407163.md?page=4)