# What does democracy do post-trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 16, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743 "2018-08-16T18:39:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/41 "2018-08-17T13:52:19Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Direct election of the President (eliminate the Electoral College). That assumes people won’t vote in a populist demagogue. I don’t think that will prevent that at all, in fact I think it will increase that chance. Trump won by playing the rules of the EC, not the popular vote. Hillary neglected key parts of winning the EC, almost as if popular vote mattered. They were playing two different games, and Trump played the correct one. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/42 "2018-08-17T14:26:22Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Quite the reverse, actually: it no longer values those without - or with lesser - education. It equates a lack of education with a lack on intelligence. Both Trump and Brexit are reactions to this. The elites look down and proclaim, and the proles say, “Fuck that, you lying arseholes!” The irony, of course, is that voting for either Brexit and Trump is a _phenomenally stupid thing to do_. Yeah, people were sick of letting “the elites” push them around (whatever that’s supposed to mean). They were “[tired of experts](https://www.ft.com/content/3be49734-29cb-11e6-83e4-abc22d5d108c)”. The unwashed masses collectively stood up, declared “We don’t need none o’ yer stinkin’ degrees!” And _look where that got us_. [Britain has no idea what to do with Brexit](http://theweek.com/articles/789638/looming-brexit-catastrophe), and they’re getting closer and closer to the May 2019 deadline while the majority party is stuck infighting over what it wants (let alone what the EU will agree with). It’s a complete clusterfuck, with nobody willing or able to do the myriad things necessary to ensure that Britain’s departure from the EU doesn’t end in utter catastrophe. If Trump doesn’t go down in history as the worst president of the modern era, I’ll be pretty fucking surprised. His administration is easily the most corrupt and self-dealing in history, their policy goals are barely coherent when they exist at all, and the real damage of essentially destroying our executive branch from the DOE to the EPA, as well as the real damage of turning against our staunchest allies, probably won’t be apparent until long after Trump is gone. If our society no longer values stupid people, stupid people sure picked the exact wrong way to show us that we should value them. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/43 "2018-08-17T15:29:57Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > So far, things are actually looking fairly good. Given all the crap Trump has been shouting, he actually hasn’t achieved all that much. It is a testament to the US institutions that the executive can be kept in check like that. The U.S.'s international agreements will never be trusted again. There have been massive layoffs of career diplomats, government scientists, and government regulators. Not only has much institutional knowledge been lost but, according to reports, _ **permanent destruction** _ of certain scientific knowledge uncomfortable for polluters has been ordered. A centrist judge and intellectual right-wing judge on SCOTUS have been replaced with youthful haters. Trump has divulged military and security secrets to our enemies. The specialness of the U.S.A., long looked up to as a bastion of freedom, has been lost. Amid a global tourism boom, tourism to the U.S. has plummeted so badly that the National Travel and Tourism Office has been ordered to stop publishing arrival data. Federal debt is soaring again, with hundreds of billions passed through portals no longer subject to taxation. Polarization is so bad many old friends no longer speak to each other. Countries around the world are turning to China for leadership in trade and future planning. If these are temporary changes, I’d hate to see what permanent changes look like. > [@PastTense](#): > > Direct election of the President (eliminate the Electoral College). :smack: Blame it all on an electoral happenstance that wasn’t even the result of deliberate gerrymandering. The 46% were stupid, but the 48% were smarter. 48% - 46% = 2%; duh! Got it. I guess. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > I think in order to just not feel humiliated by his election we have to take some measures. The vacuum created by letting this go will be filled with bad. All the problems you mention are already widely discussed by rational thinkers. But the 38% aren’t listening. > [@octopus](#): > > What’s needed is what we got. Think about it. _Octopus’ haiku It doesn’t make any sense Yes, I repeat, No_ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/44 "2018-08-17T15:37:59Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > If Trump doesn’t go down in history as the worst president of the modern era, I’ll be pretty fucking surprised. What if he escapes the label because somebody worse than him gets elected afterward? Given the state of American politics, I don’t think that would be very surprising at all. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/45 "2018-08-17T15:38:17Z")
Decentralization. Very easy to do in the framework of the existing constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/46 "2018-08-17T15:52:50Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Decentralization. Is that the 21st-century version of “states’ rights” ? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/47 "2018-08-17T16:23:25Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > A basic civics/poli-sci test to vote or forget it. It’ll be easy. Like: “The US President controls the price of oil - True or False?” Nice idea as a fantasy but extremely poor idea in practice, especially given that it would be the party in power that would write the questions. We went through this with literacy tests in the Jim Crow South. Questions would probably be things like Q: What was the primary cause of the civil war. A: States rights Q: Is there a proven connection between CO2 and global warming. A: No. Q: What party did Lincoln belong to A: Republican etc. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/48 "2018-08-17T17:04:38Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Fox News is the “largest example of psychopathy in human history”? I’m not certain that’s true. And “drumpf”? Lol. > > What’s needed is what we got. Think about it. Why is donalds family name an lol? I try to cycle through different identifiers for him. You must have seen other names for him, maybe on other sites? If corporations are people Fox news is a psychopath in your home. There is no functional difference. They have taken on many functions of a human being. Think about it. If you want to talk about the retreat from reality, you have to start at fox. The things we “needed”? The people who needed to know it have not realized that yet and think they are the ones saving the country somehow. From the “Mainstream” media or something. They are being lied to and misled. We need an enema, but what form does that take? You must know. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/49 "2018-08-17T17:35:53Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The irony, of course, is that voting for either Brexit and Trump is a _phenomenally stupid thing to do_. The jury is out on the former, though May is doing her best to make it so. But consider this: millions of people thought that voting for Trump was a _better choice_ than voting first for other Republican contenders and then for Clinton. America ignores them at its peril. A warning shot has been fired; look back to 1917, 1789, and 1765. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/50 "2018-08-17T17:45:07Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The psychopathy of FoxNews aside, there’s no reason to assume that “what’s needed is what we got”. At best one could say that “what we thought we wanted is what we got” or possibly even “what we were told we needed is what we got, even though it was actually something we not only didn’t need but actually needed not to have”. Think about it. The fact President Trump is now president ought to act as a wake up call for many who were complacent about politics. I’m not hunting and pecking a thousand words on this tablet to explain but sometimes you need a particular action to have a strong counter reaction. I don’t look at Trump as a typical problem occurring on the simplistic and misleading conservative-liberal axis. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The irony, of course, is that voting for either Brexit and Trump is a _phenomenally stupid thing to do_. Yeah, people were sick of letting “the elites” push them around (whatever that’s supposed to mean). They were “[tired of experts](https://www.ft.com/content/3be49734-29cb-11e6-83e4-abc22d5d108c)”. The unwashed masses collectively stood up, declared “We don’t need none o’ yer stinkin’ degrees!” > > And _look where that got us_. > > [Britain has no idea what to do with Brexit](http://theweek.com/articles/789638/looming-brexit-catastrophe), and they’re getting closer and closer to the May 2019 deadline while the majority party is stuck infighting over what it wants (let alone what the EU will agree with). It’s a complete clusterfuck, with nobody willing or able to do the myriad things necessary to ensure that Britain’s departure from the EU doesn’t end in utter catastrophe. > > If Trump doesn’t go down in history as the worst president of the modern era, I’ll be pretty fucking surprised. His administration is easily the most corrupt and self-dealing in history, their policy goals are barely coherent when they exist at all, and the real damage of essentially destroying our executive branch from the DOE to the EPA, as well as the real damage of turning against our staunchest allies, probably won’t be apparent until long after Trump is gone. > > If our society no longer values stupid people, stupid people sure picked the exact wrong way to show us that we should value them. Many are upset that the so-called stupid people didn’t mindlessly back the most qualified person ever. > [@septimus](#): > > The U.S.'s international agreements will never be trusted again. There have been massive layoffs of career diplomats, government scientists, and government regulators. Not only has much institutional knowledge been lost but, according to reports, _ **permanent destruction** _ of certain scientific knowledge uncomfortable for polluters has been ordered. > > A centrist judge and intellectual right-wing judge on SCOTUS have been replaced with youthful haters. Trump has divulged military and security secrets to our enemies. The specialness of the U.S.A., long looked up to as a bastion of freedom, has been lost. Amid a global tourism boom, tourism to the U.S. has plummeted so badly that the National Travel and Tourism Office has been ordered to stop publishing arrival data. > > Federal debt is soaring again, with hundreds of billions passed through portals no longer subject to taxation. Polarization is so bad many old friends no longer speak to each other. Countries around the world are turning to China for leadership in trade and future planning. > > If these are temporary changes, I’d hate to see what permanent changes look like. > :smack: Blame it all on an electoral happenstance that wasn’t even the result of deliberate gerrymandering. The 46% were stupid, but the 48% were smarter. 48% - 46% = 2%; duh! Got it. I guess. > > All the problems you mention are already widely discussed by rational thinkers. But the 38% aren’t listening. > > _Octopus’ haiku > It doesn’t make any sense > Yes, I repeat, No_ I like your poetry. But shouldn’t it be octopus’s ? Hmm. Then it wouldn’t be haiku. Ok, a dispensation for poetic license. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > Why is donalds family name an lol? I try to cycle through different identifiers for him. You must have seen other names for him, maybe on other sites? > > If corporations are people Fox news is a psychopath in your home. There is no functional difference. They have taken on many functions of a human being. Think about it. > > If you want to talk about the retreat from reality, you have to start at fox. > > The things we “needed”? The people who needed to know it have not realized that yet and think they are the ones saving the country somehow. From the “Mainstream” media or something. They are being lied to and misled. We need an enema, but what form does that take? You must know. I just think all that is needlessly provocative and not at all accurate. Aside from Trump’s family name. Which is irrelevant but is apparently considered funny enough sounding to be used as a form of acceptable mockery. Again, now that Trump is president the discussions and questions raised should help prevent someone even more chaotic from coming to power. In the US at least. Hopefully people have learned to take politics and discussion a bit more seriously. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/51 "2018-08-17T17:57:26Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The fact President Trump is now president ought to act as a wake up call for many who were complacent about politics. I’m not hunting and pecking a thousand words on this tablet to explain but sometimes you need a particular action to have a strong counter reaction. I don’t look at Trump as a typical problem occurring on the simplistic and misleading conservative-liberal axis. > > Many are upset that the so-called stupid people didn’t mindlessly back the most qualified person ever. > > I like your poetry. But shouldn’t it be octopus’s ? Hmm. Then it wouldn’t be haiku. Ok, a dispensation for poetic license. > > I just think all that is needlessly provocative and not at all accurate. Aside from Trump’s family name. Which is irrelevant but is apparently considered funny enough sounding to be used as a form of acceptable mockery. > > Again, now that Trump is president the discussions and questions raised should help prevent someone even more chaotic from coming to power. In the US at least. Hopefully people have learned to take politics and discussion a bit more seriously. I can’t see an objection to his family name, or why it’s “mockery.” I am going to refer to him by different names for two reasons: It’s boring not to; and he is a wannabe dictator who needs to be put down and ridiculed and humiliated. That’s the language that these people and their followers understand, deep down. To call it out as unfair is disingenuous. He is doing that all the time. If you object to treatment of donald then it should be something that he is “not” doing himself. Donald has been speaking the language of authoritarians since he got in office.We don’t know what it looks like for him to get the full wrath and ridicule of the people he is bullying but we need to have that to move towards reality and stability in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/52 "2018-08-17T18:04:24Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But consider this: millions of people thought that voting for Trump was a _better choice_ than voting first for other Republican contenders and then for Clinton. America ignores them at its peril. A warning shot has been fired; look back to 1917, 1789, and 1765. I literally do not understand how to parse this. Yeah, there’s a lot of people who are totally wrong about almost everything. They exist. They’re a factor. What should I do with that information? Should we be nicer to them now that they’ve done something awful? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/53 "2018-08-17T18:58:38Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I can’t see an objection to his family name, or why it’s “mockery.” I am going to refer to him by different names for two reasons: It’s boring not to; and he is a wannabe dictator who needs to be put down and ridiculed and humiliated. That’s the language that these people and their followers understand, deep down. To call it out as unfair is disingenuous. He is doing that all the time. If you object to treatment of donald then it should be something that he is “not” doing himself. > > Donald has been speaking the language of authoritarians since he got in office.We don’t know what it looks like for him to get the full wrath and ridicule of the people he is bullying but we need to have that to move towards reality and stability in the country. Trump is president of the USA. He may or may not care that drad dog and a few others call him stupid names like “thump” or attempt to mock his ancestors. But like the sky screamers, if there are others that you may wish to convince with flowery rhetoric and unassailable logic you might fail to achieve your goals and only make yourself look silly with such language. It’s on par with obummer. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/54 "2018-08-17T19:02:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Trump is president of the USA. He may or may not care that drad dog and a few others call him stupid names like “thump” or attempt to mock his ancestors. But like the sky screamers, if there are others that you may wish to convince with flowery rhetoric and unassailable logic you might fail to achieve your goals and only make yourself look silly with such language. It’s on par with obummer. It’s not as bad as “Rusher.” ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/55 "2018-08-17T19:21:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t look at Trump as a typical problem occurring on the simplistic and misleading conservative-liberal axis. What part of this is not a logical consequence of that axis? It’s entirely about that. donald was using that as his only coherent strategy and got elected. Good ol boy stuff, southern strategy stuff, equivocation about racism, the new synergy between dictatorships and whiteness, and between Rs and dictators, and the trashing of US values are all in a perfect sequence of far right moves, that donald is able to make without hashing it up like the rest of his presidency. Why does he never make mistakes along the fascist line? Because it might be the actual line he is going down? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/56 "2018-08-17T19:27:40Z")
Donald likes to see Putin alone. With no aides present. He demands it. He even got a little secret gift box from putin. He trashes the US intelligence while on stage with putin. But the problem is what we call donald on threads. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/57 "2018-08-17T19:53:50Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > What part of this is not a logical consequence of that axis? It’s entirely about that. donald was using that as his only coherent strategy and got elected. Good ol boy stuff, southern strategy stuff, equivocation about racism, the new synergy between dictatorships and whiteness, and between Rs and dictators, and the trashing of US values are all in a perfect sequence of far right moves, that donald is able to make without hashing it up like the rest of his presidency. Why does he never make mistakes along the fascist line? Because it might be the actual line he is going down? Trump is more a reaction to globalism than anything else. We also see the same issues in Europe with the rise of right wing populists there and in the Middle East with terror tactics. This is not the same ol’ let’s argue about 2% tax cut or 5% increase in education spending. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/58 "2018-08-17T22:36:07Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Trump is more a reaction to globalism than anything else. We also see the same issues in Europe with the rise of right wing populists there and in the Middle East with terror tactics. This is not the same ol’ let’s argue about 2% tax cut or 5% increase in education spending. The GOP went into hyper manic tactics to defeat democracy. It began before trump. You can point to Merrick Garland. It hasn’t been that R party for a long time. A rise in fascism or authoritarianism isn’t exactly discrete from right wing politics and rhetoric over the last 50 years. Those things are bound very tightly. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/59 "2018-08-17T22:37:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Is that the 21st-century version of “states’ rights” ? Pretty much. Though I would encourage decentralization at the state level as well. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743/60 "2018-08-17T23:45:43Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > The GOP went into hyper manic tactics to defeat democracy. It began before trump. You can point to Merrick Garland. It hasn’t been that R party for a long time. > > A rise in fascism or authoritarianism isn’t exactly discrete from right wing politics and rhetoric over the last 50 years. Those things are bound very tightly. Again, you are fixated on a single political dimension. People are far more complex than that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-democracy-do-post-trump/819743.md?page=4)