# What does "God loves you" mean? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744 "2007-05-04T14:52:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/121 "2007-05-08T14:43:39Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Hate leads to suffering? On whose behalf, the hater or the hated? [/QUOTE] The Sith, I think. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/122 "2007-05-08T15:17:20Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] So, if I’m starving, hit by a car, shot by an thug in a dark alley, or struck down by a blood clot, the only reason I’m suffering _is because I choose to?_ [/QUOTE] You are changing the debate from mental suffering to physical suffering. But the rule still has application. We know that the mental state does effect the physical. We know that through the placebo effect and through bio-feedback. Are you starving because you lost your money gambling, did you get hit by a car while walking against the light, did you walk down that dark alley knowing it was dangerous, did you eat a lot of fatty foods? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/123 "2007-05-08T15:38:29Z")
**lekatt** your line of thinking is addressed in scripture, Jesus was asked why is this man lame (or blind, I can’t remember right now). They assumed it was because of something the man did (as your response to Czarcasm implies), or a sin of they parents. Jesus answered neither, it was to show the glory of God, as Jesus healed him. Yes I know you are into new age religion, but just wanted to point out a Christian view on this, we were made to live for God’s glory, not our own. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/124 "2007-05-08T16:30:27Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] **lekatt** your line of thinking is addressed in scripture, Jesus was asked why is this man lame (or blind, I can’t remember right now). They assumed it was because of something the man did (as your response to Czarcasm implies), or a sin of they parents. Jesus answered neither, it was to show the glory of God, as Jesus healed him. Yes I know you are into new age religion, but just wanted to point out a Christian view on this, we were made to live for God’s glory, not our own. [/QUOTE] Yes, when the crowd asked if it was the sins of his parents it was because of their belief in karma, and then, was it his sin, because they believed God punished people for their sins. Jesus answered correctly, because sin does not result in God’s punishment. However that does not change the fact that people punish themselves through their words and deeds. Pay no attention to a red light and you could be punished severly for doing so. Now, I am not a new ager, actually the new age movement is pretty much dead. It died from its own greed. Putting labels on people nearly always result in error. I sometimes call myself a spiritualist, that is sufficient. What I teach is a direct result of my near death experience. If you read some of the books written by near death experiencers you will see the similarities. During one of my experiences I asked this question of God: “do you now, or have you ever punished anyone for anything.” His answer: “No, people punish themselves, they not only punish themselves, but they choose the form that punishment will take.” I have no reason to doubt that, I see it everywhere." ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/125 "2007-05-08T16:40:17Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] …we were made to live for God’s glory, not our own. [/QUOTE] And that is why there are selfish people on Earth. There are made in God’s image. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/126 "2007-05-08T19:45:53Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Are you starving because you lost your money gambling, did you get hit by a car while walking against the light, did you walk down that dark alley knowing it was dangerous, did you eat a lot of fatty foods? [/QUOTE] Perhaps. Or perhaps he’s starving because invaders burned the crops, got hit by a drunken driver, had to go into the alley because of his job, and ate healthy but has a family history of heart problems. Like it or not, people are not omnipotent; bad things happen to people who are not at fault for them **all the time**. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/127 "2007-05-08T20:02:51Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Yes, when the crowd asked if it was the sins of his parents it was because of their belief in karma, [/QUOTE] Calling it karma is a bit of a distortion IMHO, the biblical reason was the effect of blessings and curses, both act generationaly and come from obeying or disobeying the laws of Moses. > [@](#): > > because sin does not result in God’s punishment Punishment can be taken in several ways - from revenge to correction - biblically it appears God does both. > [@](#): > > However that does not change the fact that people punish themselves through their **words** and deeds. Bold mine, words are the ones we are most warned against, and was the one fault that God found in Job. I do agree that people punish themself as you stated, and like your car running a red light example sometimes external forces amplify the suffering, but for that car running a red light there was a car with a green light that got hit by the car running the red light, people doing nothing ‘wrong’ now suffering. But then we get into differing degrees of suffering, someone who lost their legs might have a great life, another person in that same situation may have a miserable life. To that extent we invite our own suffering. > [@](#): > > Now, I am not a new ager, actually the new age movement is pretty much dead. It died from its own greed. Putting labels on people nearly always result in error. I sometimes call myself a spiritualist, that is sufficient Yes I know that term ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/128 "2007-05-08T20:11:02Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Perhaps. Or perhaps he’s starving because invaders burned the crops, got hit by a drunken driver, had to go into the alley because of his job, and ate healthy but has a family history of heart problems. Like it or not, people are not omnipotent; bad things happen to people who are not at fault for them **all the time**. [/QUOTE] You have a choice in life of believing you are the pawn of circumstances and forces beyond your control, or believing you can influence the design of your future by making good decisions to achieve desirable goals. You can live your life reacting or proacting, the choice is yours. The spiritual axiom “you create your own reality” is true. Spiritual teachings are clear logic, without the contradictions one finds in religion and science. The problem is that in many ways it is the direct opposite of generally held belief systems, this makes it a hard sell. But to those with experience it is a simple, straightforward approach to life on the planet earth. If you are troubled with depression, anxiety, devoid of hope for the future, you might want to practice a principle of two, there is nothing to lose, and much to gain. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/129 "2007-05-08T20:24:56Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] That’s a yes, you have total control over your beliefs, thoughts, and emotions. If you are suffering you need to figure out what you are doing to cause it. [/QUOTE] What? Are you basing this on a religious belief, because I dont see how this is true at all. Emotions by their very nature are uncontrollable. If my girlfriend dumped me, I would be sad, and no amount of thinking about the situation rationally (you’re better off, she was mean to you, you are single again, etc etc) will make my emotions go away. People suffer all the time for no fault of their own. By your logic, the refugees in Africa are suffering because they are not thinking appropriately? Jeez louise, that’s dangerous thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/130 "2007-05-08T20:25:01Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] You have a choice in life of believing you are the pawn of circumstances and forces beyond your control, or believing you can influence the design of your future by making good decisions to achieve desirable goals. You can live your life reacting or proacting, the choice is yours. [/quote] “Influence” is not “absolute control”. I can be “proactive”, take charge, assertive, and every other chest beating term you like and still get steamrolled by forces stronger than I am. [QUOTE=lekatt] The spiritual axiom “you create your own reality” is true. [/quote] :rolleyes: No, it’s not. If that was true, why can’t insane people work miracles ? Why did Communism never bring prosperity no matter how hard the Communists believed it would ? Why did the Jews not suddenly transmogrify into baby eating monsters due the Nazi’s paranoid fantasies about them ? Why has the “we make our own reality” crowd failed so badly in Iraq ? It’s because we do NOT create our own reality. [QUOTE=lekatt] Spiritual teachings are clear logic, without the contradictions one finds in religion and science. [/quote] “Spiritual teachings” ARE religious. And plenty of them have contradictions. Or are just plain incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/131 "2007-05-08T20:30:08Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] You have a choice in life of believing you are the pawn of circumstances and forces beyond your control, or believing you can influence the design of your future by making good decisions to achieve desirable goals. You can live your life reacting or proacting, the choice is yours. [/QUOTE] Ok I’m with you so far. > [@](#): > > The spiritual axiom “you create your own reality” is true. Huh? Atheists believe reality is matter and energy and that’s it (right?). Christians believe it’s matter, energy, and God. Neither of these dictate that human beings have power to dictate reality. If I believe 2+2=5, does that make it true? Maybe you are using reality in the sense of subjective reality, in which case I see your point but I still think it’s hopelessly fuzzy thinking. > [@](#): > > Spiritual teachings are clear logic, without the contradictions one finds in religion and science. I disagree. And how does science contradict itself? If science reveals a contradiction, then the scientific method rolls forward until the contradiction is resolved. > [@](#): > > The problem is that in many ways it is the direct opposite of generally held belief systems, this makes it a hard sell. But to those with experience it is a simple, straightforward approach to life on the planet earth. And this experience is learned how? > [@](#): > > If you are troubled with depression, anxiety, devoid of hope for the future, you might want to practice a principle of two, there is nothing to lose, and much to gain. Or one could get therapy, take medication, and seek the help of friends/family/religion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/132 "2007-05-08T20:42:48Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus] Huh? Atheists believe reality is matter and energy and that’s it (right?). Christians believe it’s matter, energy, and God. Neither of these dictate that human beings have power to dictate reality. If I believe 2+2=5, does that make it true? [/QUOTE] Classic New Age thinking; that there is no reality not defined by people, including mathematics. 2+2=5 if you say it does, and it’s no less valid than 2+2=4, according to them. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/133 "2007-05-08T20:56:03Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Classic New Age thinking; that there is no reality not defined by people, including mathematics. 2+2=5 if you say it does, and it’s no less valid than 2+2=4, according to them. [/QUOTE] If there’s one thing atheists and Christians can agree upon, it’s that New Age Humanism is total hogwash. Let us cherish this moment of togetherness 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/134 "2007-05-08T22:09:05Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus] If there’s one thing atheists and Christians can agree upon, it’s that New Age Humanism is total hogwash. Let us cherish this moment of togetherness 😉 [/QUOTE] Group hug ! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/135 "2007-05-08T22:10:59Z")
We’d better enjoy it while it lasts, for tommorow we shall be mortal enemies again, Doctor Mystery! Mwah ha ha ha ha ha! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/136 "2007-05-08T23:52:02Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus] What? Are you basing this on a religious belief, because I dont see how this is true at all. Emotions by their very nature are uncontrollable. If my girlfriend dumped me, I would be sad, and no amount of thinking about the situation rationally (you’re better off, she was mean to you, you are single again, etc etc) will make my emotions go away. People suffer all the time for no fault of their own. By your logic, the refugees in Africa are suffering because they are not thinking appropriately? Jeez louise, that’s dangerous thinking. [/QUOTE] No, not religious, yes, emotions are under your control. I would hate to live in a world where people act out all the emotional urges they have on a daily basis. What I said is self-evident. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/137 "2007-05-08T23:55:04Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] No, not religious, yes, emotions are under your control. I would hate to live in a world where people act out all the emotional urges they have on a daily basis. What I said is self-evident. [/QUOTE] Point of clarification-“Self-Evident” does _not_ mean “Evident only to myself”. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/138 "2007-05-08T23:58:28Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus] Ok I’m with you so far. Huh? Atheists believe reality is matter and energy and that’s it (right?). Christians believe it’s matter, energy, and God. Neither of these dictate that human beings have power to dictate reality. If I believe 2+2=5, does that make it true? Maybe you are using reality in the sense of subjective reality, in which case I see your point but I still think it’s hopelessly fuzzy thinking. I disagree. And how does science contradict itself? If science reveals a contradiction, then the scientific method rolls forward until the contradiction is resolved. And this experience is learned how? Or one could get therapy, take medication, and seek the help of friends/family/religion. [/QUOTE] If you wish to know how your future will be just look at your past. Without change your future will be more of the same. Science says that personal experience is unreliable, yet scientists continue to use their personal experiences to study things. You learn by examining your life. Socrates said: “The unexamined life is not worth living.” ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/139 "2007-05-08T23:59:53Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus] If there’s one thing atheists and Christians can agree upon, it’s that New Age Humanism is total hogwash. Let us cherish this moment of togetherness 😉 [/QUOTE] Yes, it is, and I agree completely. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744/140 "2007-05-09T00:00:54Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] We’d better enjoy it while it lasts, for tommorow we shall be mortal enemies again, Doctor Mystery! Mwah ha ha ha ha ha! [/QUOTE] I am very happy for you, hope it lasts forever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-loves-you-mean/402744.md?page=8)