# What does God want with a Starship, or God's interest in man **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333 "2006-05-26T16:38:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/21 "2006-05-26T22:42:22Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] How could it be ? How does it make anything better ? [/QUOTE] It polishes your soul, thus making you more likely to get into heaven, and thereby gain eternal bliss. Also, it pleases God (apparently, or so he says). > [@](#): > > I disagree. All morality involves interaction with the objective world and objective consequences. Labels like “good” and “evil” are arbitrary, but the moral sytems themselves can be objectively defined and judged according to whether or not they have the desired consequences. Ok, I should have said that the idea of actions being “good” and “evil” are abitary. Futhermore, the goals that a moral system is designed to achieve by promoting certain types of behaviour are in turn arbitary. Therefore, any form of constructed system of morality that does not rely on the absolute authority of a supernatural agency is, by definition, artificial and arbitary. This does not make it inferior to a supernatural-defined morality system, but I think it is important to recognise that without an absolute morality, the system is human-created and, therefore, arbitarilly chosen. > [@](#): > > But that makes worship not a matter of morality, but extortion. Hmm, yes and no. New Testament God\* wants you to pray to him, not to help Him, but to help yourself. He has an agenda to promote (saving the deserving members of the human race- how He arrived at the definition of “deserving” is for another thread) and a key step in that plan is getting the mortals to realise his goodness and existence. Thus, prayer. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t make much sense to me; prayer doesn’t _do_ anything. But **if you believe in God** (which is how I phrased my original comment\*\* it does. It helps to redeem the world, starting with you (this could, I admit, be construed as selfish- just a little :D). > [@](#): > > No, good works are what matter, not intentions or an inner conviction of your own benevolence. Plenty of well meaning fanatics and fools have done horrible and stupid things, meaning well the whole time. “By their fruits you shall know them” is used to define false prophets for a reason. Something I addressed in that old woman parable. New Testament God wants good deeds, but they have to be backed up by prayer. Why? Because unless they are committed in pursuit of God’s purpose, good deeds are apparently worthless- more like doing good through accident than by knowing what the right thing is and then doing it. \*Important distinction. Old Testament God is presented as just a destrutive and unpleasent bully, with few redeeming features and an argument that always boils down to “me God!”. Here, he is unquestionably a “jealous God” who demands worship. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/22 "2006-05-26T23:08:32Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Clam] It polishes your soul, thus making you more likely to get into heaven, and thereby gain eternal bliss. [/quote] Souls are shiny, now ? Really, that _sounds_ nice, but makes no sense. [QUOTE=Happy Clam] Futhermore, the goals that a moral system is designed to achieve by promoting certain types of behaviour are in turn arbitary. [/quote] No, it’s not. You’re dealing with humans, not an arbitrary undefined species. It is an objective fact that most humans don’t want to be robbed, raped, tortured and/or murdered. A moral code that promotes such things is therefore against the desires of most people; a code that discourages them adheres to those desires. You can call them Good and Evil, “Ethical System A” and “Ethical System B” or anything else. That doesn’t make the systems arbitrary, just the labels. [QUOTE=Happy Clam] Therefore, any form of constructed system of morality that does not rely on the absolute authority of a supernatural agency is, by definition, artificial and arbitary. [/quote] Why would a supernatural being have more moral authority than, say, me ? [QUOTE=Happy Clam] This does not make it inferior to a supernatural-defined morality system, but I think it is important to recognise that without an absolute morality, the system is human-created and, therefore, arbitarilly chosen. [/quote] We live in an objective reality and have to deal with those intractable things called “facts”, “human nature” and “physical laws”; we can’t make just any arbitrary system _work_. That’s what the Communists tried in many places for example; they decided that society’s rules were arbitrary and decided to just impose new ones; it didn’t work very well. [QUOTE=Happy Clam] Hmm, yes and no. New Testament God\* wants you to pray to him, not to help Him, but to help yourself. [/quote] That’s basically what I just said; it’s a more polite way of saying “pray or burn”. It’s only “helping ourselves” because God says so, and the only threat it saves us from is God. That’s blackmail. [QUOTE=Happy Clam] But **if you believe in God** (which is how I phrased my original comment\*\* it does. It helps to redeem the world, starting with you (this could, I admit, be construed as selfish- just a little :D). [/quote] As he’s omniscient he already knows what we are like and will be like, and how devoted we are to him; it makes no sense to say that prayer or anything else could help him decide to send us or anyone to heaven or hell. [QUOTE=Happy Clam] New Testament God wants good deeds, but they have to be backed up by prayer. Why? Because unless they are committed in pursuit of God’s purpose, good deeds are apparently worthless- more like doing good through accident than by knowing what the right thing is and then doing it. [/quote] That simply makes no sense. If I try to do something good and succeed, that’s me doing something good on purpose, period. It is _not_ doing a good thing by accident, no matter what God or anyone says. God’s opinion or desires doesn’t make anything more intrinsically more valuable. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/23 "2006-05-27T00:41:05Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] [QUOTE=kelly5078] The problem is that good works are superficial. The heart has to lead before the body will follow. /QUOTE] Wait a second…I cant let something this stupid go without a second comment. Good works are superficial? So, your belief is the opposite of “Actions speak louder than words”? -Joe [/QUOTE] No need to be insulting just because it wasn’t clear to you. Calling something _stupid_ just because you don’t imediately get it is well…you know. That old addage has an implied “eventually” meaning that no matter what you give lip service to the sum of your actions reveals the inner you. The Bible basically says the same thing. So, temporarily someone might appear generous or kind in order to manipulate their image or to create a false impression for others, and someone might actually benefit from their less than sincere actions, but in order for the world as a whole to advance the action has to be driven by sincere compassion that doesn’t fade when the cameras are off and the personal benefits are gone. Take the cigarette ad that describes a tobacco company donating a couple hundred thousand to charity {somebody benefited} and then spending a million or so tooting their own horn. Does that kind of attitude hold long term benefits for mankind? Even wanting to help others can wind up not helping if you’re not in touch with your own motives. There’s a great book titled “How Can I Help?” which describes someone who is so attached to the label of helper that they unconsciously enable others to remain helpless. Even that doesn’t promote long term growth. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/24 "2006-05-27T01:01:38Z")
[QUOTE=CaveMike] Perhaps God doesn’t want or need to be worshipped. Perhaps he asks to be worshipped only because it is necesssary or useful for us humans? This seems to be the simplest explanation. [/QUOTE] I agree except that I don’t think it is God asking us to worship him but religious leaders and those who feel the need for the God as father figure feeling. IMHO God’s interest in man is because we are connected to God and to each other. We make choices that deny or affirm the truth of that connection. Our choices are based on whether we believe in, understand, feel, or have faith in, that connection, or not. If God wants anything it for us to wake up and see and feel that connection and act accordingly. Not worship. Worship can help if it is transitional, but at some point we need to claim personal responsibility for our choices, and see ourselves as equal parts of the whole rather than remain in a dependent child mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/25 "2006-05-27T02:48:24Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] One of my objections to religion is that I find the idea of worshiping anything to be rather twisted and self destructive. [/QUOTE] Jews, Christians, and Moslems would almost agree. They would say that worshipping anything other than the one true God is twisted and self-destructive (which is why it’s prohibited by the first and/or second of the Ten Commandments (depending on how you number them)). A Jew, Christian, or Moslem would insist that the God they worship is _worthy_ of worship, as nothing and no one else is. Your statement is a reasonable and good consequence of atheism: the belief that nothing and no one exists that is worthy of such worship. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/26 "2006-05-27T03:18:41Z")
[QUOTE=Eonwe] What could an omnipotent being gain from a worshiped/worshiper relationship with humans? [/QUOTE] It’s not that this is the sort of relationship from which either God or humans have more to gain than from other possible sorts of relationships. It’s that this is the sort of relationship, between God and human beings, that is naturally right and appropriate—that fits the very nature of things. I admit that this seems like a non-answer; or at least that if it answers your particular question it brings up other really big questions. I was going to say more; I have a number of half-baked responses swirling around in my head, but I’m going to wait and see if I can bake them any more before I try to write them up here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/27 "2006-05-27T04:04:15Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] Jews, Christians, and Moslems would almost agree. They would say that worshipping anything other than the one true God is twisted and self-destructive (which is why it’s prohibited by the first and/or second of the Ten Commandments (depending on how you number them)). A Jew, Christian, or Moslem would insist that the God they worship is _worthy_ of worship, as nothing and no one else is. Your statement is a reasonable and good consequence of atheism: the belief that nothing and no one exists that is worthy of such worship. [/QUOTE] “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you’ll understand why I dismiss yours.” – Steven Roberts ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/28 "2006-05-27T04:48:10Z")
You know, if we built it…and named it after one of the framers of the Constitution, we could call it “Jefferson’s Starship”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/29 "2006-05-27T07:11:46Z")
When deep time and the universe are taken into account, it is amazing how limited the current concept of god is. Similar to the Fermi paradox, I do think the question why the extraterrestrials are not here can be applied to god, why is he/she/it/them not here? There is powerful evidence that humans controlled fire 125,000 years ago, yes some evidence is there to suggest human ancestors used fire 300,000 years ago! Now the problem is this: traditionally speaking, about 8000 years ago god allegedly came to demand worship. A little bit late for the gift Prometeus… Well, I’m going to be generous and say there are other ways to think about god being the originator, but he is not really involved much on the dealings of the earth; like many founding fathers, I do think he is busy elsewhere, only not in this realm. Frankly, I do think he/she/it or they are not interested in the outskirts of the galaxy or in this dimension. Going forward makes our current assumptions run into more trouble IMHO, for I do think our descendants, both biological and electronic, will have different ideas of what god wants. We are only the beginning of a civilization that will change in the future, and it is very likely god (or the gods) will be interested in us only when we finally get to a similar level, or we become a force that can not be ignored anymore. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/30 "2006-05-28T02:12:58Z")
In America we are Christian because we are taught that way. In The Middle East they are Muslims because they were taught that way. The cargo cultists invented a religion in the 20th century to explain what they couldnt understand.If god existed and cared about man he wouldnt have assholes like Pat Robetson and Oral Roberts speaking for him. A better use of a lightning bolt I cant figure. The question is the opposite"gods interest in Man Instead of mans interest in god. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/31 "2006-05-28T02:17:37Z")
[QUOTE=kelly5078] The problem is that good works are superficial. The heart has to lead before the body will follow. So I think that one of the reasons for worship is to get the heart in the right place. [/quote] They could be - but so can worship. Good works that come from the heart, not to get brownie points like a politician working in a soup kitchen during a campaign, should count. > [@](#): > > Since I’m a Buddhist, I don’t do the worship thing, but a lot of what I do has to do with opening the heart. By that, I don’t mean getting all lovey-dovey; I mean cultivating an appreciation for the way life goes, both the good and the bad. Through that, one gets a number of benefits, one of which is the ability to love better, another of which is greater courage (derived from the Latin for heart, of course). I think that worship of a god can get you to that place. Are you an atheist Buddhist or a theist Buddhist? Which god are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/32 "2006-05-28T06:27:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Are you an atheist Buddhist or a theist Buddhist? Which god are you referring to? I’m an agnostic Buddhist. I don’t have enough information to just say no, although my lineage (Theravadin) believes I should. I’m thinking of the Jewish and Christian ideas of God, as I’m familiar with those. I’m probably not off the mark concerning the Muslim God, but I haven’t explored what Muslims think enough to say for sure. Still, I’m not sure it matters, since I was talking about worship, and not about the nature of God per se. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/33 "2006-05-28T12:02:34Z")
I do not think worshiping a God (or Gods) was a god’s idea, I think it was a human invention. Some human started the practice and other humans picked it up. Just as people seem to worship some Celeberties. It would seem to me the best way of honoring a Father would be to be the best person one could be, and treat all his children with love and respect. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/34 "2006-05-29T01:56:02Z")
Perhaps because the concept of a worshiped god evolved in an age of human social development where people were very deferential to authority figures. In the world of 4000 years ago with political leaders claiming to be God/work for god and demanding unquestioned obedience it may have seemed natural to have the same relationship with God. To worship and obey. At least one (conversations with God), and probably many more new age books attempt to get past the ‘god as worship’ to ‘god as friend’ mentality and to portray God as a friend with a sense of humor instead. The new age religion as a whole attempts to bypass the concept and replace it with god as a support network. You can say the same about modern christianity. It may still have concepts like worship, but God today is seen as more of a loving companion to alot of christians than the dictator he was thousands of years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/35 "2006-05-29T01:59:14Z")
[QUOTE=CaveMike] Perhaps God doesn’t want or need to be worshipped. Perhaps he asks to be worshipped only because it is necesssary or useful for us humans? This seems to be the simplest explanation. [/QUOTE] But if that were true those who worship would have it easier. The Jews have had it very hard. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/36 "2006-05-29T11:08:20Z")
[QUOTE=Wesley Clark] But if that were true those who worship would have it easier. The Jews have had it very hard. [/QUOTE] I have no idea how you make a connection like that. Care to explain how man’s need to worship translates into life being easier? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/37 "2006-05-29T18:56:23Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I have no idea how you make a connection like that. Care to explain how man’s need to worship translates into life being easier? [/QUOTE] He said that humans worship because it is better for us. But the Jews have worshipped far longer than the other religions, but they have suffered far more too. So I don’t see how worshipping does a person any good because if it did the Jews would have had it easier. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/38 "2006-05-30T02:57:54Z")
[QUOTE=Wesley Clark] He said that humans worship because it is better for us. But the Jews have worshipped far longer than the other religions, but they have suffered far more too. So I don’t see how worshipping does a person any good because if it did the Jews would have had it easier. [/QUOTE] Um…no he didn’t say that or even imply your translation. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/39 "2006-06-06T00:37:58Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Clam] …unless they are committed in pursuit of God’s purpose, good deeds are apparently worthless- more like doing good through accident than by knowing what the right thing is and then doing it. [/QUOTE] I find it very hard to believe that a good deed doesn’t count if you do it out of the kindness of your heart, if you don’t have the GOD ™ stamp of approval on it. I hate the whole “You just THINK you’re a good person- you’re actually a bad, bad person if you don’t believe in God.” This implies that a bad person is automatically a good person if they profess belief in God- that God really only wants lip service, rather than actions. This just makes God seem sort of, well, shallow. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333/40 "2006-06-06T01:01:22Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] I find it very hard to believe that a good deed doesn’t count if you do it out of the kindness of your heart, if you don’t have the GOD ™ stamp of approval on it. I hate the whole “You just THINK you’re a good person- you’re actually a bad, bad person if you don’t believe in God.” This implies that a bad person is automatically a good person if they profess belief in God- that God really only wants lip service, rather than actions. This just makes God seem sort of, well, shallow. [/QUOTE] It’s also not what Jesus taught in the NT. In Mat 25 starting in verse 31 , the parable of the sheep and goats. Jesus rewards people for visiting him when he was sick or in prison, feeding him when he was hungry. The people don’t know when they they saw Jesus and ask, Lord when did we see you? He answers saying whatever you do to the least of these you do unto me. In my interpretation of this passage these are people who did good because of the true spirit of love and compassion in their heart. A good Christian wouldn’t need to ask when they saw Jesus because they would know this principle. In Mat 7 starting in verse 15 Jesus talks about a good tree bearing good fruit saying that’s how his followers are recognized. Then in verses 21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Here are people who acknowledge Jesus as Lord but are not forgiven. Over and over again in the NT it says we are judged and rewarded according to our works and deeds. So, deeds definitely matter and also the motivation behind those deeds. We need to develop a real spirit of love and compassion and seeing our fellow man as ourselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-god-want-with-a-starship-or-gods-interest-in-man/358333.md?page=3)