# What does Hezbollah really want (from Israel)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159 "2006-09-10T13:34:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/1 "2006-09-10T13:34:31Z")
The echoes of the war in Lebanon had not died yet, a war costing the lives of over a thousand people, and damages estimated in the billions. The war was triggered by Hezbollah shelling of Israel, and the cross-border attack into Israel, killing 3 soldiers and kidnapping two more. And so, I ask, what is it that Hezbollah really want? Why won’t they disarm, remaining as a political party, rather than keeping the paramilitary sect? From what I gather, Hezbollah present three goals for its operations: 1. A resistance force against Israeli aggression. 2. Release of the Lebanese prisoners held in Israel. 3. Liberation of the Lebanese lands occupied by Israel. Here is my analysis of these claims: Hezbollah as a resistance force against Israeli aggression Hezbollah was one of the factors leading to Israel withdrawal from S. Lebanon in 2000. In the recent conflict, the Lebanese army did not operate, and Hezbollah was the sole defender of Lebanon against Israel. So, surely this goal is valid, right? Wrong! It may have been a valid point prior to the 2000 withdrawal. As things stand today, Israel has no claim to Lebanon territory, nor any reason to engage in hostilities in that region. That is, off course, without accounting for Hezbollah. If Hezbollah would not have attacked Israel, this whole war would not have even started. It seems, then, that Hezbollah is working as a resistance force against Israeli “aggression” caused by Hezbollah’s own actions. :dubious: Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies… Release of the Lebanese prisoners held in Israel OK, so maybe the resistance force argument is a little week. But you must admit the prisoners goal is valid, and indeed a noble one. No reason to hold on to prisoners, after the hostilities were finished, right? Wrong! Well, at least partially wrong. I do not have a full list of all the Lebanese prisoners held in Israel, and the reason they are being held. It is possible that some of them should be released. However, one name keeps popping up when discussing prisoners: that of Samir Kuntar (other spelling versions exist). [Here](http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=AL-20060722&articleId=2790) is an excerpt from an Interview with Hezbollah Secretary General Hasan Nasrallah, by Al-Jazeera Beirut Bureau Chief Ghassan Bin-Jiddu, on 20 July 2006: > [@Al- Jazeera](#): > > [Bin-Jiddu] Regarding the exchange [of prisoners], who will you exchange the two Israeli soldiers with? Are you going to exchange them with Lebanese prisoners or Palestinian prisoners? > > [Nasrallah] This is an open process, and I will leave it to negotiations. > > [Bin-Jiddu] You still believe that Samir al-Qintar will be in Lebanon? > > [Nasrallah] God willing. In this exchange, **Samir al-Qintar will be the first one** What is the use of this exchange if Samir al-Qintar is not included in the exchange and if all the Lebanese prisoners are not included in this exchange - of course, I am talking about an open process. Bolding mine. Also, more cites upon request. So, why is this Samir Kuntar the prisoners’ symbol? He is the Lebanese prisoner held longest it Israeli prison (since 1979). “Well,” one may say, “after 27 years in prison, surly this man should be released, right?” Wrong again! Let’s take a look at Mr. Kuntar’s activities, and the reason he is in prison. From [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar): > [@](#): > > On April 22, 1979, Samir Kuntar led a group of four who entered Israel from Lebanon by boat… > Around midnight they arrived at the coastal town of Nahariya. The four killed a policeman who came across them. The group then burst into a high building (number 61) in Jabootinski Stret where they parted into two groups. One group broke into the apartment of the Haran family before police reinforcements had arrived. The unit took twenty-eight-year old Danny Haran hostage along with his four-year-old daughter Einat. The mother, Smadar Haran, was able to hide in a crawl space above the bedroom with her two-year-old daughter Yael, and a neighbor. > … > After taking the hostages, Kuntar’s group took Danny and Einat down to the beach, where a shootout with Israeli policemen and soldiers erupted. **Samir Kuntar shot the father, Danny, at close range in front of his daughter in the back and drowned him in the sea to ensure he was dead. Next, he smashed the 4 year old girl’s head, Einat, on beach rocks and crushed her skull with the butt of his rifle**. Bolding mine. [Here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A2740-2003May17¬Found=true) is a more personal presentation of this attack, from Smadar Haran, the sole survivor of the Haran family: > [@](#): > > Outside, we could hear the men storming about. Desperately, we sought to hide. Danny helped our neighbor climb into a crawl space above our bedroom; I went in behind her with Yael in my arms. Then Danny grabbed Einat and was dashing out the front door to take refuge in an underground shelter when the terrorists came crashing into our flat. They held Danny and Einat while they searched for me and Yael, knowing there were more people in the apartment. I will never forget the joy and the hatred in their voices as they swaggered about hunting for us, firing their guns and throwing grenades. I knew that if Yael cried out, the terrorists would toss a grenade into the crawl space and we would be killed. So I kept my hand over her mouth, hoping she could breathe. As I lay there, I remembered my mother telling me how she had hidden from the Nazis during the Holocaust. “This is just like what happened to my mother,” I thought. > As police began to arrive, the terrorists took Danny and Einat down to the beach. There, according to eyewitnesses, one of them shot Danny in front of Einat so that his death would be the last sight she would ever see. Then he smashed my little girl’s skull in against a rock with his rifle butt. That terrorist was Samir Kuntar. > By the time we were rescued from the crawl space, hours later, Yael, too, was dead. In trying to save all our lives, I had smothered her. This is the beast of a man Hezbollah is putting forward as a symbol of the Lebanese prisoners. Should he be released, I ask you? Liberation of the Lebanese lands occupied by Israel Well, if nothing else, surly it’s legit to strive for liberation of your people’s occupied lands. So Hezbollah is just at the very least in this, right? Wrong again! This, too, might have been a valid argument back in the times of the Israeli occupation of S. Lebanon. But now? Even the UN (not a warm supporter of Israel) approved the Israeli withdrawal was full, to the international lines. But the Hezbollah does not care. They want more. Many people heard about the Shebba farms. This piece of land (that has no strategic value) is in fact Syrian. Everyone (except Hezbollah, that is) agrees this is so. However, some may say, as this land is surly not Israeli, and hold limited value, maybe, for peace sake, it should be consented and given to Lebanon. Right? Wrong! Would Hezbollah accept the Shebba farms, and disarm? C’mon, give them some credit. They have _already_ started advocating further land disputes – you know, just in case Israel _will_ hand the farms over. Nasrallah frequently argues in his speeches that Israel is occupying additional Lebanese territory beyond Shebba: the so-called “7 lost villages”. What are the 7 lost villages, you ask? These are seven Shi’ite villages just south of the international border that were abandoned in 1948, and whose original residents and their descendants live in Lebanon. Only the return of these villages, i.e., only Israeli agreement to move its UN-approved international border with Lebanon two or three kilometers south and (near Kiryat Shmonah) east, argues Nasrallah, can pave the way for the conclusion of Hizballah’s armed struggle. [Here](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/nassrallah.html) is from an Interview with Nassrallah. Conducted by Antoine K. Kehdy, February 2, 2000. > [@](#): > > MEI: What is Hizballah’s perspective on the issue of the “seven villages?” > > Nassrallah: We have asked the Lebanese government to claim its right to recover control over these villages because we consider them to be Lebanese. Therefore, they should be returned to the control of the Lebanese government. If the French granted them to the British, who granted them to Israel, this agreement has no legitimate legal validity. > > MEI: What would you say to those who assert that, in 1923, these villages were attached to Palestine, and that Yasser Arafat considers them part of Palestinian territories? > > Nassrallah: This is a complex issue that should be studied in depth. What is important to us is that they be taken back from Israel. If they are returned as part of a Palestinian state, then the issue would be subject to discussion, but if President Arafat is claiming these villages just to give them back to Israel, then that would be an act of excessive treason. [here](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/lebanon/2001/1210mistura.htm) is a description of the villages from Global Policy Forum: > [@UN Representative De Mistura](#): > > The other main territorial dispute which has been raised by the government and Hizbullah is the so-called Seven Villages, whose residents became Lebanese following the creation of Greater Lebanon in 1920 but ended up in Palestine four years later as part of an agreement between Britain and France on demarcating Palestine’s northern frontier with Lebanon and Syria. > In 1948, the residents of the Seven Villages all Palestinian nationals since 1924 fled their homes in the first Arab-Israel war and sought refuge in Lebanon. Some purchased Lebanese nationality immediately; the rest were officially granted citizenship in 1994. The government has declared that the return of the Seven Villages is one of seven demands to be met by Israel in exchange for peace. In recent months, however, the Seven Villages issue has all but disappeared from the agenda as other, arguably more convincing, flashpoints have emerged. A fuller description was offered by an Ha’Aretz reporter. This report is no longer available, but I managed to find [a Google cached version](http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:fg8yTCwT6zcJ:www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746274.html+%22seven+lost+villages%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1) Also, from [Peace Now](http://www.peacenow.org/briefs.asp?rid=&cid=1053)’s site: > [@](#): > > The story of the seven villages says a lot about the potential for discord in Shi’ite-Palestinian relations in Lebanon. Their residents were the only Shi’ite Muslim Arabs in Mandatory Palestine. All told, some 20 villages—the remainder populated by Sunni Muslim and Christian Arabs—that were originally assigned to Lebanon in the famous Sykes-Picot agreement between Britain and France of 1921, ultimately found themselves in the territory of British mandatory Palestine when, in 1922, the British and French completed their survey of the territory and laid down border markers. When Israel was born on this territory in 1948, the residents of all 20 fled to Lebanon. In 1994 Hizballah and Amal, the other Lebanese Shi’ite movement, used their political clout to obtain Lebanese citizenship for the Shi’ite refugees, whereas the Sunnis and the Christians remain stateless Palestinian refugees in Lebanon. Now, let’s just assume for a moment that Hezbollah will get these villages as well (and trust me: they won’t. It’s a total non-starter.). Would that be enough? Off course not. You see, there were actually 20 villages. Seven were Shiite, so they are presented first, but the other 13 villages wait their turn. And if these were to be “returned” Hezbollah would undoubtedly “discover” yet another village that was considered Lebanese in the 1700’s, or maybe an industrial park where Lebanese used to work, or a patch of land upon which Lebanese used to picnic, or… you get the drift. These are all speculations, so I could be wrong, right? One final time: Wrong! I guess it’s time to reveal the answer to the question: **What does Hezbollah really want from Israel?** The answer is simple: A complete destruction. Nothing less would be accepted. [Here’s from wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah): > [@](#): > > It was formed during the 1982 Lebanon War, and officially announced on February 16, 1985 when Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin declared the group’s manifesto which included three goals: the eradication of Western Imperialism in Lebanon, the transformation of Lebanon’s multi-confessional state into a Islamic state, and the complete destruction of the state of Israel. Hezbollah has abandoned the goal of transforming Lebanon into an Islamic republic, but continues to call for the elimination of “the Zionist entity” (i.e. Israel) Also, [from the US navy](http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/hizbalah.htm) > [@](#): > > is dedicated to liberating Jerusalem and eliminating Israel But maybe you don’t trust those sources. How about Nassrallah himself? [Here](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/4/Excerpts%20from%20Speech%20by%20Hizbullah%20Secretary-Genera) is from a his speech on April 2000 (full of other gems, including, but not limited to Holocaust denial): > [@Nassrallah](#): > > Anyone who reads the Koran and the holy writings of the monotheistic religions sees what they did to the prophets, and what acts of madness and slaughter the Jews carried out throughout history… Anyone who reads these texts cannot think of co-existence with them, of peace with them, or about accepting their presence, not only in Palestine of 1948 but even in a small village in Palestine, because they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment Also, from [the interview linked before from 2000](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/nassrallah.html) > [@](#): > > I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even recognize the presence of a state that is called “Israel.” I consider its presence both unjust and unlawful. My conclusion: Hezbollah real goal is the eradication of Israel. Anything else presented is only pretence, a tactical move toward that goal. Any concessions made will only serve to increase their power, not to promote peace. Hence, no concessions should be made. The sole demand should be for Hezbollah to disarm immediately, and unconditionally. _That_ is the only prospect for peace. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/2 "2006-09-10T18:52:40Z")
Very good OP…well laid out and with good info in there. For the most part I’m in agreement of your assessment, of Hezbollah’s stated goals, why they are mostly bullshit, and of course what they are really after. Hopefully someone will come in and actually engage in the debate…I’m not holding my breath though. One thing I’ll say is that I think Hezbollah’s actual goals aren’t the elimination of Israel, per se. I know that you stated you felt they were, and I’m confident they wouldn’t shed many tears over Israel’s destruction…and also said destruction may be an incidental (i.e. it may be something they are doing as part of their over all plan), but I don’t think its their primary goal. I THINK that their main goal is to become a power…just like AQ wants to become a power, Hamas wants to become a power, and to a greater extent Iran want to be come THE power…in the region. I think Israel gives them a convient excuse, a unifying goal between the various Islamic factions, something to show that they ARE a power by giving them something to fight and attack. I think Hezbollah wants to leverage their heroic ( :rolleyes: ) struggle against Israel into real power. Oh, certainly Iran (and to a lesser degree Syria) thinks Hezbollah is their tool, a club to use against Israel and also a _nudge nudge, wink wink_ that Iran is innocent of such things, while everyone knows who is pulling the puppet strings there. I.E. its a way for Iran and Syria to accrue more prestige (power) with little risk to themselves. But I think Hezbollah ALSO has ideas of becoming a power unto themselves. Just my impression from some of the stuff I’ve read in the past. Anyway, just some of my jumbled thoughts on the subject. I’m working atm (or should be :)), so I don’t have time to really make anthing more coherent atm…besides, you pretty much hit all the points I always make in these things anyway. -XT ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/3 "2006-09-10T19:30:35Z")
Well, if Israel did cease to exist, then there would be three major sources of conflict: Sunni/Shia Sectarian Tension Iran(non-Arab Persian)/Arab Tension Western Powers/Arab Tension And as a minor area of discord, the Kurdistan issue. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/4 "2006-09-10T19:46:26Z")
[QUOTE=cerberus] Well, if Israel did cease to exist, then there would be three major sources of conflict: Sunni/Shia Sectarian Tension Iran(non-Arab Persian)/Arab Tension Western Powers/Arab Tension And as a minor area of discord, the Kurdistan issue. [/QUOTE] Don’t forget oil. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/5 "2006-09-10T20:05:35Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Don’t forget oil. [/QUOTE] Well oil would be the thing all those various groups are fighting for control over. No more oil and the region is free to wipe each other out to their hearts content much like Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/6 "2006-09-10T21:24:09Z")
Stewie: It’s not that I want to _kill_ Lois, it’s that I just want her not to be alive any more. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/7 "2006-09-11T05:05:07Z")
[QUOTE=Puzzler] The echoes of the war in Lebanon had not died yet, a war costing the lives of over a thousand people, and damages estimated in the billions. The war was triggered by Hezbollah shelling of Israel, and the cross-border attack into Israel, killing 3 soldiers and kidnapping two more. And so, I ask, what is it that Hezbollah really want? Why won’t they disarm, remaining as a political party, rather than keeping the paramilitary sect? From what I gather, Hezbollah present three goals for its operations: 1. A resistance force against Israeli aggression. 2. Release of the Lebanese prisoners held in Israel. 3. Liberation of the Lebanese lands occupied by Israel. [/QUOTE] I heard that Hezbollah didn’t exist until Israel invaded Lebanon. Maybe Hezbollah thinks Lebanon needs a buffer zone of land in Israel to prevent Israeli aggression. There are a lot of Lebanese prisoners who are in prison for what could be characterized as rsistance fighting during Israel’s occupation of Lebanon. Maybe Israel could free those guys. ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/8 "2006-09-11T06:23:39Z")
[QUOTE=cerberus] Well, if Israel did cease to exist, then there would be three major sources of conflict: Sunni/Shia Sectarian Tension Iran(non-Arab Persian)/Arab Tension Western Powers/Arab Tension And as a minor area of discord, the Kurdistan issue. [/QUOTE] Aren’t you confused with [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=385353) thread? ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/9 "2006-09-11T06:30:42Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] I heard that Hezbollah didn’t exist until Israel invaded Lebanon. [/quote] True. As I said, some of their goals could be justified before Israel withdrawal in 2000. It may be worth reminding that Israel invaded Lebanon the first time because (Ta-da!) it was a de-facto Patah-Land, help by the PLO, and used for shelling Israeli cities and villages. [QUOTE=col\_10022] Maybe Hezbollah thinks Lebanon needs a buffer zone of land in Israel to prevent Israeli aggression. [/quote] I have already addressed it in my OP. In short: if Lebanon would not attack Israel, Israel would be more than happy to keep a peaceful border. No buffer zone is needed unless you intend hostilities. [QUOTE=col\_10022] There are a lot of Lebanese prisoners who are in prison for what could be characterized as rsistance fighting during Israel’s occupation of Lebanon. Maybe Israel could free those guys. [/QUOTE] Maybe. Got a list of names + reasons for being in prison? Because I’m not the one placing Samir Kuntar’s name at the front – they are. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/10 "2006-09-11T07:54:25Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] I heard that Hezbollah didn’t exist until Israel invaded Lebanon. Maybe Hezbollah thinks Lebanon needs a buffer zone of land in Israel to prevent Israeli aggression. [/QUOTE] Hezbollah didn’t exist before Israel invaded Lebanon. But the PLO did. You seem to be using the same definition of ‘Israeli aggression’ that Hezbollah used in the recent dust up as well. Appearently ‘Israeli aggression’=Attacking Israel then being all confused when Israel responds. The nerve of them! From [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_Lebanon): > [@](#): > > , after a period of peace, violence erupted in South Lebanon. According to the U.N. Secretary-General, the Israeli air force bombarded Palestinian targets in south Lebanon, and later that day Palestinian elements fired artillery and rockets into northern Israel. However, according to the Federal Research Division of the Library of Congress, “Israel responded to PLO rocket attacks on northern Israeli settlements by bombing PLO encampments in southern Lebanon.”[1] The United Nations Secretary-General noted, “After several weeks of relative quiet in the area, a new cycle of violence has begun and has, in the past week, steadily intensified.” He further stated, “There have been heavy civilian casualties in Lebanon; there have been civilian casualties in Israel as well. I deeply deplore the extensive human suffering caused by these developments.” The President of the Security Council, Ide Oumarou of Niger, expressed “deep concern at the extent of the loss of life and the scale of the destruction caused by the deplorable events that have been taking place for several days in Lebanon.”[2] [3] On July 24, United States envoy Philip Habib brokered a shaky ceasefire, but incidents continued. Over the next 11 months, Israel charged that the PLO committed 270 violations of the cease-fire, in which 29 Israelis were killed and more than 300 were injured. Israel is also charged with violating the cease-fire during this time, leading to many Palestinian and Lebanese deaths.[1] Notice a pattern? Before it was the PLO opperating in Lebanon and attacking Israel, prompting an Israeli response. Recently it was Hezbollah, operating in Southern Lebanon and attacking Israel, prompting an Israeli response. I’m dectecting a theme here… > [@](#): > > The Palestinian forces continued to grow in Lebanon with full-time military personnel numbering around 15,000, although only 6,000 of these, including 4,500 regulars, were deployed in the south. They were armed with 60 aging tanks, many of which were no longer mobile, and 100-200 pieces of artillery (Sayigh, 1999, p. 524). According to Israeli analysts Schiff and Ya’ari (1984), the PLO more than tripled its artillery from 80 cannons and rocket launchers in July 1981 to 250 in June 1982 (pp. 83-84). The same authors also refer to Israeli intelligence estimates of the number of PLO fighters in southern Lebanon of 6,000 “divided into three concentrations; about 1,500 south of the Litani River in the so-called Iron Triangle (between the villages of Kana, Dir Amas, and Juya), Tyre, and its surrounding refugee camps; another 2,500 of the Kastel Brigade in three districts between the Litani and a line running from Sidon to northeast of Nabatiye; and a third large concentration of about 1,500-2,000 men of the Karameh Brigade in the east, on the slopes of Mount Hermon” (pp. 134-135). The total forces deployed by Syria, the PLO and Israel during the conflict are detailed in the table below. On 21 April 1982, after a landmine killed an Israeli officer in Lebanon, the Israeli Air Force attacked the Palestinian-controlled coastal town of Damour, killing 23 people. Despite this and numerous other attacks launched since 24 July, 1981 the PLO continued to observe the cease-fire agreement (Cobban, 1984, pp. 119-120). The Secretary-General computed from his reports to the Security Council (S/14789, S/15194) that from August 1981 to May 1982 inclusive, there were 2096 violations of Lebanese airspace and 652 violations of Lebanese territorial waters (Chomsky, 1999, p. 195; Cobban, 1984, p. 112) [4]. On June 3, the Palestinian militant group Fatah-The Revolutionary Council (headed by Yasser Arafat’s opponent Abu Nidal) attempted to assassinate Shlomo Argov, Israel’s ambassador in London, paralyzing him. Prime Minister Menachem Begin had been informed by Israeli intelligence that the PLO was not involved in the attack on Argov, but withheld this information from his Cabinet (Gilbert, 1998, p. 503). Rafael Eitan, who was then the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, responded to the aforementioned information in his famous saying “Abu Nidal, abu shmidal. We need to screw PLO!” (“!אבו נידאל, אבו שמידאל. צריך לדפוק את אש"ף”). On June 4 and 5, Israeli F-16 planes bombed Palestinian refugee camps and other PLO targets in Beirut and southern Lebanon killing 45 and wounding 150. For the first time in over ten months, the PLO responded by launching artillery and mortar attacks on civilian centers in northern Israel. On 6 June 1982, Israeli forces under direction of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon invaded southern Lebanon in their “Operation Peace of the Galilee”. The irony of Hezbollah (or Lebanon) thinking they need a buffer zone from that mean, aggressive Israel is appearently lost on you… [QUOTE=col\_10022] There are a lot of Lebanese prisoners who are in prison for what could be characterized as rsistance fighting during Israel’s occupation of Lebanon. Maybe Israel could free those guys. [/QUOTE] Why exactly should they? Oh, thats right…‘Israeli aggression’, meaning these guys were caught attacking Israel and so should be let free. Only fair, after all, they were attacking Israel and all. Israel MUST have been at fault. And turning these guys loose would probably solve all the friction between Israel and, er…well, everyone else in the region. I’m sure of it! Turn em loose and they will go out and become productive Lebanese citizens, living in goodness and light from here on out. Aggressive or hostile thoughts will be the last thing they will have toward Israel from here on out. To be sure… -XT -XT ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/11 "2006-09-11T07:59:48Z")
To elaborate on the subject of the Lebanese prisoners: I have made a little googling, starting with Samir Kunter as a pivot. It [appears](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3445515.stm) that the Lebanese prisoners are in fact … Samir Kunter: > [@BBC](#): > > Israel will release the longest-held and only remaining Lebanese prisoner in Israeli jails, Samir Qantar… But I did not give up. Surely, Hezbollah would not lie. There is no way the will call Kuntar “prisoners” rather than “prisoner”. And my work had been fruitful. [Here](http://www.upc.org.uk/hasann12jul06.html)’s from Nasrallah’s speech on July 12, 2006. > [@Nasrallah](#): > > Today is the day of loyalty to Samir al-Qintar, Yahya Skaf, Nasim Nisr, and all brothers, detainees, and prisoners in the occupation jails. [Other sources](http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=275) add a forth name: > [@](#): > > Is there any way other than capturing Israeli soldiers to bring home Samir al-Qantar, Yahya Skaf, Nasim Nisr, and Ahmad Farran, Not much is available on the web WRT the three other alleged prisoners. Most sites give the same basic information, but without giving sources. I did find an [article from the independent](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article1190543.ece) (which I hope I a bit more reliable here). As it’s a subscription site, [here](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14129.htm)’s a copy of the same article. > [@The Independent](#): > > Yahyia Skaff was captured by the Israelis in March, 1978, after an attack on the Israeli coast with Palestinian guerrillas which cost 35 Israeli lives and provoked Israel’s 1978 invasion of Lebanon, another Israeli military disaster intended to “root out terrorism” in Lebanon. Reports said that Skaff was killed in the incident – but prisoners released from Israeli jails insisted they had met him in captivity. Again, Hizbollah did not exist in 1978. Nasim Nisr, a Lebanese-born Israeli was imprisoned for having contact with the Hizbollah, although Nasrallah has not been advertising the fact that he is demanding the freedom of an Israeli citizen. Two other sites with similar data: [1](http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=61&x_article=1170), [2](http://www.lfpm.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13592&page=6). Regarding the forth “prisoner”, [this](http://www.underwatertimes.com/news.php?article_id=87241069130) is probably the only source: > [@](#): > > He also called on the government to determine the fate of fisherman Mohammad Farran. Farran’s boat was discovered riddled with bullets at sea in October 2005. Ahhh. A missing fisherman. He must have been abducted by [del]aliens[/del] the Israelis. So, to sum up the prisoners issue, there are at most four prisoners: 1. Samir Kunter. Child murderer terrorist, who deserves much worse than the 542.5 years in prison he was sentenced to. 2. Nasim Nisr. An Israeli citizen, for crying out load. 3. Yahyia Skaff. A Palestinian terrorist, who is probably long dead. 4. Mohammad Farran. A missing fisherman. OK. Which of these is Hezbollah fighting for, again? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/12 "2006-09-12T01:43:45Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] The irony of Hezbollah (or Lebanon) thinking they need a buffer zone from that mean, aggressive Israel is appearently lost on you… [/quote] whoosh [QUOTE=xtisme] Why exactly should they? Oh, thats right…‘Israeli aggression’, meaning these guys were caught attacking Israel and so should be let free. Only fair, after all, they were attacking Israel and all. Israel MUST have been at fault. And turning these guys loose would probably solve all the friction between Israel and, er…well, everyone else in the region. I’m sure of it! Turn em loose and they will go out and become productive Lebanese citizens, living in goodness and light from here on out. Aggressive or hostile thoughts will be the last thing they will have toward Israel from here on out. To be sure… [/QUOTE] Well, according to Puzzler, these guys don’t even exist. According to Puzzler there aren’t any Lebanese freedom fighters in Israeli prisons so I guess the point is moot. I’m a bit shocked that this is all about 4 prisoners but… ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/13 "2006-09-12T04:21:15Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] Well, according to Puzzler, these guys don’t even exist. According to Puzzler there aren’t any Lebanese freedom fighters in Israeli prisons so I guess the point is moot. I’m a bit shocked that this is all about 4 prisoners but… [/QUOTE] Except for sarcasm, got any, like, _actual cites_ to the contrary? ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/14 "2006-09-12T13:14:58Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] I’m a bit shocked that this is all about 4 prisoners but… [/QUOTE] Why? Look at the lengths Israel are prepared to go to in order to recover a single missing corporal or whatever. The US is pretty big on that whole 'no man left behind shtick as well. Or alternatively, when everyone is looking for a reason to start a fight, any reason will do. ---
**Author:** ![FWorld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FWorld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FWorld)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/15 "2006-09-12T17:36:38Z")
Puzzler, There are really several intertwined explanations of this war. The first one you can find [here](http://thethinkingleb.blogspot.com/2006/08/hezbollah-won.html) . It claims that Hezbollah attacked and escalated the conflict in an attempt to serve its Iranian and Syrian masters. The Iranian nuclear file was going to the UNSC, the UN committee investigating the Hariri murder was about to drop the Syrians in the shit, Hamas’s Meshal faction was in trouble after capturing Shalit (Meshal resides in Damascus and is very close to Iran), so Hezbollah was used to create a diversion. Plus, the weakening of the state’s hold in Lebanon would be to Hezbollah’s advantage, since it could then continue to carry its guns without the Lebanese being able to do much to force it to disarm. There are a number of internal Lebanese reasons for Hezbollah starting this war, most importantly, that the Lebanese had been demanding that Hezbollah lay down its arms and change into a purely political army. By creating a war with Israel, as you said, it could then turn around and say ‘our guns are still needed’. The second perspective you can find [here](http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/saad_ghorayeb_final.pdf,) . (PDF file)The author is Amal Saad Ghorayeb. She’s Lebanese, has extensive knowledge of Hezbollah, and wrote a piece for the Carnegie Endowment. Her main findings were: • Hizbollah’s July 12 attack on an Israeli convoy was intended to provoke a prisoner exchange; it was not an Iranian-directed effort to trigger a wider conflict. • Although prepared for it, Hizbollah did not expect a massive Israeli counter-strike. • Hizbollah perceives Washington as the engineer of Israel’s current offensive and now views itself as in direct confrontation with the overall U.S. agenda for the region. • Hizbollah aims to compromise the perception of Israeli military supremacy in the region, with the hope of undermining the stability of Israel itself. The third perspective is that of Seymour Hersh, writing for the New Yorker. His claim is that Israel was waiting for an excuse to attack Hezbollah, with America’s approval, to get rid of the threat on the north and to set the ground for an American attack on Iran. [Here’s his article](http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/060821fa_fact) [Here’s the link to an interview conducted with him](http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/14/1358255) Which one is it? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/16 "2006-09-13T01:06:42Z")
Hezbelloh does not want Israel gone. Hezbelloh needs Israel, just as any wannabe totalitarian needs (as Orwell would put it) their Goldberg. Hezbollah is part of a reactionary movement against modernity and secularism, a movement towards insularity in which an Islamic theocracy is dominant. Israel is a means to that end, but not the end itself. Its goal is not the destruction of Israel but the continued demonization of Israel as the dreaded other that drives the fear that keeps them in a position of power. Prisoners are irrelevant. Land is irrelevant. The plight of the people at the hands of Jews or at the hands or Arabs is irrelevant. Other than as means to the goal of driving the people away from integration into the world’s commuity of communities, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/17 "2006-09-13T01:31:42Z")
Now that you mention it, **DSeid** , I’ve been wondering what their real campaign line is, other than “Get rid of Israel!” Sure, that’s a nice soundbite if you’re into the hate Israel crowd, but other than that, what is the rest of their plan. Do they have any proposals on how they’re going to govern the newly “liberated” territory? ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/18 "2006-09-13T08:04:54Z")
**FWorld** , Since it’s practically impossible to factually answer your question (cites and all), I’ll give you my opinion. I believe that the real reason(s) from your list is (2) with some (1) thrown in. (3) is irrelevant. I’ll explain. (1) Iranian influence Hezbollah has obvious ties to Iran. The Shiite religious leadership is in Iran, and Hezbollah follows the version of Islamic ideology developed by Ayatollah Khomeini. In addition, Iran supports Hezbollah by supplying them with funding and weapons. However, I don’t believe Hezbollah consider themselves to be puppets, even if Iran does. Hezbollah has, IMO, agenda of its own, that in general coincide with Iran’s, so it’s their interest to maintain good relations with Iran. I also think Hezbollah could not have initiated the attack without Iran’s consent, so the date may well have been coordinated with Iran. But I see no reason to believe it was not Hezbollah’s initiative. (2) Hezbollah’s agenda I pretty much agree with Ms. Ghorayeb. I think Hezbollah’s aim was to free Samir Kuntar, so that they will be portrayed as heroes in the Arab world, hence boosting their status. As it’s in human nature to assume that history repeats itself, they probably assumed Israel will employ limited reaction, as it had done on previous occasions. Hence, I believe they were indeed surprised. And, as they “won the war” (by merit of not being eliminated,) they will undoubtedly use that to try and promote their vision as heroes versus the weak Israeli army (portraying Israel as weak - cobwebs society - had been a repeated theme in Nasrallah’s speeches). WRT Hezbollah - USA relations, I don’t think they were best before, so I don’t think much has changed. (3) Israel From the article you linked to, I don’t see your conclusions. It says that Israel had drawer plans for this war (I’d be worried otherwise), that they were coordinated with the USA (good), and that Washington thought it may serve as a test case for Iran (irrelevant WRT Israel’s policy). Current and former Israeli officials stated that Israel follows its own interests, not USA’s. Some unnamed people give their opinion that Israel was waiting for a provocation in order to initiate war; I’m not convinced. The post-war newspapers in Israel were full of description of the standing Israeli policy before the war. That policy, termed “containment” simply states “Let Hezbollah arm, but hope they won’t use the weapons until they rust”. Stupid? Definitely (doubly so in retrospect). War-hungry? Hardly. **Dseid** , What you say makes perfect sense. Which means Nasrallah may even consent to allow Israel to survive “in a small village in Palestin” (his words) to leave an outlet for hatred. **Monty** , The three original goals of Hezbollah were the eradication of Western Imperialism in Lebanon, the transformation of Lebanon’s multi-confessional state into a Islamic state, and the complete destruction of the state of Israel (from [WP on Hezbollah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah)). However, the part about Islamic republic was apparently removed later. So, AFAIK, no real operative plans for the “liberated territories”. OTOH I must say they seem to make a rather good job in their de-facto state in S. Lebanon. So, at least while they have steady cash flowing from Iran, they would probably manage. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/19 "2006-09-13T12:18:16Z")
I’m going to irresponsibly divert this thread The real cause of the Hezbollah-Israel spat was the withdrawel of Syrians. The Israelis did not like being in Lebanon, about six relatively peaceful years followed their withdrawel, with Syria filling the vacuum - then ‘world opinion’ kicks them out and Hezzbollah goes ballistic :-} I am not at all convinced that Syria is a willing partner in the whole Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah mess - my take is that they are scared sh/tless of the lot, and their own juvenile population. Reverting to the real subject: I have been pondering why Hamas and Hezbollah are pretty efficient at setting up a social support network, and suspect that their Iranian paymasters would not be very impressed if they hoiked the loot off to Switzerland or the Caymans. If you control the money pump, then you can divert it to sensible things like personal bank accounts, but if you are beholden to others, then at least, you need to make a show of value for money. Puzzler - you forgot the second crew who went after the first - it was 2 captured and 8 dead. - but the missiles were the clincher ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-hezbollah-really-want-from-israel/372159/20 "2006-09-13T13:49:03Z")
You have to admire the stupidity of humanity : \*As a 16-year-old, Samir Kuntar secretly entered the Israeli town of Nahariya, near the border with Lebanon, and killed an Israeli army officer. It made him a legendary figure for Lebanon’s Shiites. But it’s all a lie. Samir Kuntar killed not an army officer, but an ordinary family man and his four-year-old girl.\* from [this interview](http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1739622.htm) on the radio today. Nothing like using myths to foment further bloodshed.