# What does Iran really want, geostrategically? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273 "2011-11-08T14:35:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/61 "2011-11-10T22:40:01Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > America has singlehandedly changed the culture of the entire world, altered how people view their governments, kicked the balance of power inside every single world nation barring North Korea, and kept global conflict down. Yeah, well, Britain did pretty much all of that first. And now they’re over it. They’re not a global superpower any more, but they’re a strong second-tier power and a respected country, and that’s enough. “We’re not having another bloody Empire while I’m Patrician! We’re still getting over the last one!” – _Making Money,_ Terry Pratchett If in the next decade America becomes less of a global superpower than we’re used to being – say, the kind of power we were before WWII – that wouldn’t be so bad, would it? We still have a fully industrialized democracy and a rich culture and half a continent’s worth of homeland to roll around in. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/62 "2011-11-11T10:24:56Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Perhaps you mean the joke is rhyming “want” with “cunt”, then chickening out, but even if you didn’t throw out a substitute, it doesn’t rhyme very well, at least not in English. Yes, that was the joke, such as it was. And I’m familiar with the form - I thought you’d screwed it up in the original. (Gosh, is there any joke that _isn’t_ made funnier by tedious dissection?) \ Fine. Here. \*Higgledy piggledy Mad Ahmedinejad Wanted to give the Is- raelis a slap So with a flourish he Pulled out some white-out and Boldly deleted them Right off the map.\* ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/63 "2011-11-11T11:06:19Z")
An armed society is a polite society. Not nuclear arms though! You can kill someone with one of those. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If in the next decade America becomes less of a global superpower than we’re used to being – say, the kind of power we were before WWII – that wouldn’t be so bad, would it? We still have a fully industrialized democracy and a rich culture and half a continent’s worth of homeland to roll around in. I thought one of the perks of ending the empire is you don’t have to call it the homeland anymore. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/64 "2011-11-11T12:18:03Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > An armed society is a polite society. It ain’t. Wherever you go in America, in the city or the countryside, the more guns there are around, the ruder and cruder and nastier are the people. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/65 "2011-11-11T17:50:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It ain’t. Wherever you go in America, in the city or the countryside, the more guns there are around, the ruder and cruder and nastier are the people. Really, that’s your impression? That certainly hasn’t been mine in either Minnesota or Vermont. That said, I don’t think a gun-toting society is more polite than a less gun-toting society. In fact, the rudest society I’ve ever been in, Israel, is quite gun friendly. I think culture is more important than guns where friendliness is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/66 "2011-11-11T18:01:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really, that’s your impression? > > That certainly hasn’t been mine in either Minnesota or Vermont. I’m thinking more of handguns than hunting weapons. People who think they need to own or carry them (for non-work-related reasons) are generally unpleasant, IME, regardless of ethnicity or culture or urban/rural environment, and a local culture where this attitude is widespread is never a polite one. Is South Compton polite or refined? And gun-toting rednecks are fair fodder for Foxworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/67 "2011-11-11T21:20:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m thinking more of handguns than hunting weapons. People who think they need to own or carry them (for non-work-related reasons) are generally unpleasant, IME, regardless of ethnicity or culture or urban/rural environment, and a local culture where this attitude is widespread is never a polite one. Is South Compton polite or refined? And gun-toting rednecks are fair fodder for Foxworthy. Not to turn this already badly offbalanced thread into a gun control thread, you are dealing with some personal biases, and you are also lacking in data. You could be seated next to a dozen people with CCW’s, and you would never know it. You can’t honestly know who is and isn’t carrying a weapon at all times. And to counter your anecdote, some of the most unpleasant people I have ever had the misfortune to spend time with are violently anti-gun. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/68 "2011-11-11T21:49:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is South Compton polite or refined? I know many whites are afraid of predominantly black neighborhoods and are afraid of young black males from ghetto neighborhoods, but I’ve never had any problems when I was working in either Roxbury or Olneyville and found most of the people in that area quite friendly and pleasant. Also, I’m not sure how many people in “South Compton”(why did you mention South Compton BTW, I’ve only heard references to Compton) generally carry around guns. Menace II Society was a great movie but was hardly a documentary and I think the number of people there who are involved with gangs is quite small. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/69 "2011-11-12T00:07:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Menace II Society was a great movie but was hardly a documentary . . . Never saw it. I was thinking of _Boyz in da Hood._ Again, no documentary, but a definite _cinema verite_ feel. “Cain’t we have just one night in da hood where nobody gets hurt or die?!” ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/70 "2011-11-12T04:15:39Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > \*Higgledy piggledy > Mad Ahmedinejad > Wanted to give the Is- > raelis a slap > > So with a flourish he > Pulled out some white-out and > Boldly deleted them > Right off the map.\* Very good, Sir. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/71 "2011-11-12T04:35:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Never saw it. I was thinking of _Boyz in da Hood._ Again, no documentary, but a definite _cinema verite_ feel. “Cain’t we have just one night in da hood where nobody gets hurt or die?!” So you’re making judgements about the black population of Compton based on a movie that wasn’t even about the blacks of Compton?:dubious: That seems rather odd even if we were to decide to make judgements about cultures based on movies. I’d certainly hope people wouldn’t make judgements about Iranians based on the Araz family from\* 24\*. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/72 "2011-11-12T15:21:02Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I think the main things Iran wants, in order is: > > -To defend itself from another invasion by its Sunni dominated neighbors. > -To help Shia in Sunni dominated countries and export the Islamic revolution. > -Minor regional stuff like controling oil in the Caspian, Keeping the Kurds in other countries down, etc. U.S.A.s gift of Iraq was a huge win for the Shi’ites; too bad clever diplomats didn’t exploit this. > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > **Simplicio** , I thought the main reason offered was that nukes were one of the best guarantees Iran could have of not having to suffer an invasion by Western forces. Isn’t the quest to build nuke weapons the biggest problem with Iran? Then again, with even-more-roguish states like Pakistan and North Korea having nukes, that genie is out of the bottle. > [@Icarus](#): > > Iran wants: > > [ul] > [li]To sit at the grown-up’s table - be considered a power in the world.[/li][li]To be able to do what it wants - not to have to ask permission or demand it (see - what does a Woman want?).[/li][li]To not have others chattering on about What does Iran want? which is actually quite patronizing to them.[/li][/ul] Since finances depend on oil, and politics are internal, maybe diplomatic stances like Iran’s are often just “face saving” etc.? 😕 > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Iran wants leadership of the Muslim world in preparation for the 12th Imam. Nuking Israel will get them popular support from Indonesia to Morrocco resulting in their rightful role as the capital of the most powerful region in the world, the Ummah. Is this true? and if not, What’s the SDMB practice re: posting parody without a smiley icon? As they know in _Cafe Society_ I’m a gullible conspiracy nut. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/73 "2011-11-14T19:38:14Z")
Iran is like the nauseating kid in the playground who keeps running up to other kids and kicking them in the ankles before running away, who then gets himself a knife for “self protection” because the other kids keep threatening him. Iran wants nukes, not for self defence, but so as to be left alone by other nations while they export terrorism. Its only the nut jobs at the top who want this, they have lost and are still losing support from the general population. If we punish Iran as a whole we’ll end up with an Iran united against the West . I still recall the idiots in the West who demonstrated against the Shah, because to do so was seen as trendy and rebellious by ignorant poseurs’ who thought that it might help them get a girl to let them put their hand in her bra. The Oxford union of students voted the Ayatollah Khomeni "Man of the Year "or somesuch at the time. Its funny how those people either don’t mention it now or expect us to laugh it off as youthful folly. Perhaps we could drop them into Iran to tell the locals about their youthful high jinx so that they can join in the laughter. I sometimes think that more harm to people has happened as a result of spotty nerds pretending to be liberals or radicals, so as to make themselves seem more interesting to the opposite sex; then some of the activities of left and right wing loonies. And its still happening. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/74 "2011-11-14T20:22:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I have to say I’m a bit surprised by this. > > You’ve certainly supported censoring dissident political views in the US, but you never struck me as the type of guy who’d be supportive of giving Nuclear weapons to a government that regularly engages in mass murder against its own citizens. > > Beyond that, they don’t just want nukes to “prevent invasions” but to increase their ability and influence in destabilizing the other government in their region and replacing them with extremist Shia governments. Maybe I was unclear. I don’t support giving them a nuke, but I don’t mind too much if they develop one. I don’t support anything more than diplomatic gestures and possibly sanctions to prevent that from happening. If its a choice between bombing them or Iran developing nukes, then I’d rather just let them develop it I’m unaware of any mass murders in Iran, unless you count the occasional crackdown on political dissidents. But I will point out that killing your own people and committing national suicide by using a nuke against another country are way different things. No, they want to prevent others from invading them. Getting friendly governments surrounding them and maintaining power is the way to do that. And its hardly destabilization. So we’ll switch from having lots of Sunni Muslims to Shiite Muslims in the area, no big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/75 "2011-11-14T20:45:55Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I’m unaware of any mass murders in Iran, unless you count the occasional crackdown on political dissidents. They’ve murdered tens of thousands of political dissidents not to mention their treatment of the Bahai, gays and others whom the government disapproves of. > [@](#): > > No, they want to prevent others from invading them. Getting friendly governments surrounding them and maintaining power is the way to do that. And its hardly destabilization. So we’ll switch from having lots of Sunni Muslims to Shiite Muslims in the area, no big deal. You think Lebanon is ruled by Sunni Muslims? I have to say you don’t do much to inspire confidence in your knowledge or understanding of the region. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/76 "2011-11-14T21:04:20Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > If its a choice between bombing them or Iran developing nukes, then I’d rather just let them develop it. FWIW, I’d agree with this. That said, I can certainly understand why Jews are terrified of some Hojjiateh whack-job coming to power and having access to nuclear weapons and a desire to finish the job Hitler started. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/77 "2011-11-14T21:59:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > They’ve murdered tens of thousands of political dissidents not to mention their treatment of the Bahai, gays and others whom the government disapproves of. So? China apparently executes thousands every year but I have no problems with them having a nuke. There’s a big difference between killing your own people to preserve some kind of imagined order and making war on your neighbors > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You think Lebanon is ruled by Sunni Muslims? I said Lebanon? Quote me where I named any specific country. Its no secret that a large amount of Muslims in the region is Sunni and Iran rightly feels some heat for being the only major Shiite country. I used to think its annoying when you put words into other people’s mouths but now I can’t even muster up the effort to make fun of you for it. It is what it is, if you want to misunderstand, be my guest ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/78 "2011-11-14T22:26:41Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I said Lebanon? Quote me where I named any specific country. Its no secret that a large amount of Muslims in the region is Sunni and Iran rightly feels some heat for being the only major Shiite country. I used to think its annoying when you put words into other people’s mouths but now I can’t even muster up the effort to make fun of you for it. It is what it is, if you want to misunderstand, be my guest I apologize for overestimating your knowledge of the region. I won’t do it again. We were discussing Iran’s attempt to have various Arab governments in the region replaced with extremist Shia governments. One of the more prominent examples of this is Lebanon, which is currently a democracy which Iran wants ruled by the Hezbollah. When I mentioned Iran was destabilizing the various governments in the area you said > [@](#): > > Quote: > So we’ll switch from having lots of Sunni Muslims to Shiite Muslims in the area, no big deal. Since Lebanon is one of the most prominent examples of Iran attempting to destabilize the governments I assumed you would naturally include Lebanon amongst the countries. I didn’t realize that you were unaware of Lebanon’s history with Iran. Once more, apologies. I won’t presume you have a better than superficial understanding of the region. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/79 "2011-11-14T22:29:27Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So? China apparently executes thousands every year but I have no problems with them having a nuke. There’s a big difference between killing your own people to preserve some kind of imagined order and making war on your neighbors Most of us are not so sanguine about mass murder and genocide but I guess you have differing views. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273/80 "2011-11-14T23:39:13Z")
Nowhere does your snark refute anything I said. We’ll switch from having lots of Sunnis to lots of Shiites. That’s no big deal. Let Iran have its power, it will make little difference in the end. Too bad you can’t see that through your myopia > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Most of us are not so sanguine about mass murder and genocide but I guess you have differing views. I’m realistic about what we can affect and what we can. By every measure, China kills more people than Iran, is more able to negatively affect the US, and has already positioned itself as a major opposing power to the US with separate spheres of influence. If they want to be, they are 10 times more dangerous than Iran. Sure, I’d like to stop China from cracking down on dissidents, killing people, etc. But realistically, we’re not going to do that and we can’t do that. What you call a cavalier attitude I call being realistic Iran will do nothing with nukes except brandish them as a threat, that much I am willing to bet anything on. They are no dangerous in the sense that they are going to start a nuclear war. So excuse me if I don’t give a damn about them developing weapons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-iran-really-want-geostrategically/602273.md?page=5)