# What does it make sense to believe without evidence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007 "2005-10-06T04:51:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/61 "2005-10-08T01:31:39Z")
> [@Trust](#): > > Well first off I just want to make it clear that looking at the evidence honestly and logically is of coarse one of the greatest things we can do. My point was that no matter who you are, you are putting your faith in something. An atheist puts his faith in that life after this ceases to exist (\ [@](#): > > Sin, whether you believe in God or not, holds people down and causes negative consequences. Without it, one is set free. I’m not a big fan of the popular concept of sin. For the sake of this conversation how will we define it? I might say that sin is whatever seperates us from God and each other. Since the essence of God is love and truth then anything contrary to those to principles might be considered sin. Do you agree? > [@](#): > > I was not saying that if you are an atheist that you cannot have a life of meaning. I very well know that there are many atheists who are great parents for instance or have huge meaning in their life. I do have to admit that the atheists that I have met do not have qualities of a person that I admire. Really? None of them? Don’t you know atheists who are honest? Kind? Compassionate? Don’t you know any atheists who have personal integrity, and courage? You need to have a wider social circle. I don’t give a rats ass about what people give lip service to. You get a sense of what people really value when you spend a little time with them. It’s the essence of who they are and what their actions tell me they really care about that matters to me. I know wonderful people who are Christians, Atheists, Wiccans, etc. and I know jerks who go to church twice a week every week. > [@](#): > > If you dont believe in God your entire life is going to be completely different. Being made in Gods image as a good example would mean we are worth the world. Not believing that would lead one to believe that they are not as worthwhile. The Bible tells us that belief isn’t enough. It’s what you value. What is the foundation that your life is built upon. Not just in words but what is reflected in your actions. Anyone can go to church and sing praises to God and say praise Jesus. They might even mean it at the time. The test is what happens during the rest of the week. When opportunities present themselves and we are tested to see what kind of people we really are. What happens then? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/62 "2005-10-08T01:41:35Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The part I bolded pretty much sums up your arguement. You obviously have some pretty strong feelings about religion in general and Christianity specifically. > > It seems a little ridiculous to claim that Christs teachings have had no positive effect. Feeding the hungry. Helping the poor. What about Martin Luther King? Was Civil Rights a positive effect? You might argue {and _have_ if I remember correctly} > that the negatives of Christianity out weigh the positive but to claim **no** positive effect is just ludicrous. I was speaking in terms of it’s net effect of course; no large movements have only good or bad effects. For example, I’ve heard that Nazi Germany had a very enlightened forestry policy; that doesn’t outweigh the negatives. The negatives of Christianity, and religion is general, outweigh the positives. In fact, I’ll be plain : even if I believed religion to be true, I’d still oppose believing it or following it. I find it morally corrupt, irrational, and philosophically disgusting. It also tends to warp people, making them irrational and amoral, or outright malignant. > [@Trust](#): > > If I claim to be atheist but really believe in Christ and God, am I still an atheist? Of coarse not. Anyone can further themselves by using millions of different means. Christs unpleasant nature? You do know Christ was perfect? Your statement implies that you believe that Christ lived. Someone who was the source of the myth probably lived; he was either a religious fanatic, a fraud, or just crazy. He was certainly not perfect; I can’t see how that word can even apply to a person. > [@Trust](#): > > The thing is that I know how realistic I am and I just cannot deny Christ. I have too much proof. Just like I have more proof saying there is a God vs. matter come out of nowhere. You have no proof; none exists. There is proof that matter comes out of nowhere; they are called virtual particles. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/63 "2005-10-08T01:46:19Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Faith is an assertion that something exists with no or contrary evidence. There is _no evidence_ of an afterlife, and quite a lot against. Disbelief in an afterlife is not a statement of faith; it’s fairly obvious. It’s believing otherwise that takes faith. > > How can sin have consequences if it doesn’t exist ? Evil, yes, but a "sin"is a crime against a god; no god means no sin. > Hardly. Believing you are “made in God’s image” means you can claim other people aren’t; then you can kill/torture/rape/oppress them without guilt. After all, they’re less than human, or they’d look like you, right ? > > Since when has religion made people more moral or compassionate ? As a rule, it’s encouraged, excused and ordered incredible cruelty and ruthlessness. It is mankind that is made in the image of God, not one person. I think you know that. I think you also know that belief in God has made many people kinder, and compassionate. If you wish to flee from God’s punishment by believing God doesn’t exist, you are wasting breath. God will not harm you, God harms no one. You are like Don Q. jousting windmills. It is ok, you are safe. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/64 "2005-10-08T01:51:24Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It is mankind that is made in the image of God, not one person. I think you know that. I think you also know that belief in God has made many people kinder, and compassionate. If you wish to flee from God’s punishment by believing God doesn’t exist, you are wasting breath. God will not harm you, God harms no one. You are like Don Q. jousting windmills. It is ok, you are safe. I’m not afraid of a nonexistent god; I’m afraid of his murderous, tyrannical followers. I don’t believe religion makes people nicer; I believe some people are nice enough to overcome the morally crippling effect of religion. We were not made in anyone’s image; we crawled out of the primordial ooze by our own efforts, not those of some power mad scum in the sky. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/65 "2005-10-08T02:01:55Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > I was speaking in terms of it’s net effect of course; no large movements have only good or bad effects. For example, I’ve heard that Nazi Germany had a very enlightened forestry policy; that doesn’t outweigh the negatives. The negatives of Christianity, and religion is general, outweigh the positives. In fact, I’ll be plain : even if I believed religion to be true, I’d still oppose believing it or following it. I find it morally corrupt, irrational, and philosophically disgusting. It also tends to warp people, making them irrational and amoral, or outright malignant. Even as net effect you’d have a hell of a job proving that. No way to measure it that I can see. I’d say your discription of how religion warps people is an exageration. What percentage of people in this country are religious? If the majority of them were as bad as you describe don’t you think we’d be a hell of a lot worse off than we are? I have a question though. Concerning the net effect of science. If we give science credit for medicine saving lives and other advances, then doesn’t science have to take the blame for things like the Atomic bomb, Global warming, etc.? What is the net effect of science? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/66 "2005-10-08T02:23:46Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Even as net effect you’d have a hell of a job proving that. No way to measure it that I can see. I’d say your discription of how religion warps people is an exageration. What percentage of people in this country are religious? If the majority of them were as bad as you describe don’t you think we’d be a hell of a lot worse off than we are? The good done by religion is so little, and the damage so enormous I feel safe in judging it a net loss. Yes most people here are religious; it’s probably not a coincidence America is so screwed up compared to other industrialized nations. Look across the world; the more strongly a region is religious, the more screwed up and miserable it is. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I have a question though. Concerning the net effect of science. If we give science credit for medicine saving lives and other advances, then doesn’t science have to take the blame for things like the Atomic bomb, Global warming, etc.? > What is the net effect of science? Science takes some blame, but less than religion because it a technique, not a belief system. Science doesn’t say what we _should_ do; that is a subjective choice, and science is about objective reality. Also : The benefits of science are enormous, _and can be gained no other way_. The benefit of religion are small, and can be gained in many other ways. We don’t need religion the promote a moral code ( even if it was good at it ), or promote unity, or charity ( as if it did ), or explain the world. Others things can do that as well or better, without the same destructive side effects. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/67 "2005-10-08T03:38:35Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > The good done by religion is so little, and the damage so enormous I feel safe in judging it a net loss. Or you just want to. You can make this assertion all day but it seems ironic that you who asks for evidence from anyone who asserts any spiritual belief offhandedly make this one that you can’t prove. > [@](#): > > Yes most people here are religious; it’s probably not a coincidence America is so screwed up compared to other industrialized nations. Look across the world; the more strongly a region is religious, the more screwed up and miserable it is. And does religion get credit for all of America’s accomplishments too? Regardless, this has nothing to do wuth how extreme your statement was that religion tends to make people “amoral and malignant” Care to prove that statement. Over 50% of the religious people in this country are amoral and malignant? Let’s see the evidence. > [@](#): > > Science takes some blame, but less than religion because it a technique, not a belief system. Science doesn’t say what we _should_ do; that is a subjective choice, and science is about objective reality. > > Also : The benefits of science are enormous, _and can be gained no other way_. The benefit of religion are small, and can be gained in many other ways. We don’t need religion the promote a moral code ( even if it was good at it ), or promote unity, or charity ( as if it did ), or explain the world. Others things can do that as well or better, without the same destructive side effects. I think you contradict yourself. If science is about objective reality and religion is a belief system then you can’t compare the positive and negative elements as if they’re the same. The benefits of science and it drawbacks are about how we choose to use it. To heal or to kill. To solve problems or create them. I’d say religion is like that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/68 "2005-10-08T04:05:04Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Or you just want to. You can make this assertion all day but it seems ironic that you who asks for evidence from anyone who asserts any spiritual belief offhandedly make this one that you can’t prove. So you want yet another list of Bad Things Done In The Name Of Religion ? Very well, here’s some : Thirty Years War; Protestent/Catholic conflict in Ireland; the Inquisition; the Crusades; burkas; the Taliban; faith healing; the breakup and conflict between India and Pakistan; the suppression of ether for use in childbirth to punish women; the destruction of a wide range of native cultures; the Holocaust; 9-11; suppression of stem cell research; the war against abortion; suppression of evolution in schools; attempts to suppress research and education about drug resistence in diseases; witch hunts; the suppression of life extension research; suppression of geocentrism; and on and on… > [@cosmosdan](#): > > And does religion get credit for all of America’s accomplishments too? You assume I admire America. I don’t, I just live here. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Regardless, this has nothing to do wuth how extreme your statement was that religion tends to make people “amoral and malignant” > Care to prove that statement. Over 50% of the religious people in this country are amoral and malignant? Let’s see the evidence. I said “it tends to”, not “does”. Evidence ? How about the outright terroristic anti-abortion movement, Catholic child molesting and the coverup, religiously motivated misogyny, hatred of the poor, antisemitism, the anti-gay crusade, the degradation of science education to please the religious, the anti-stem cell crusade, the religiously blessed massacre and persecution of the Native Americans and blacks, the election of Bush and his fellow Republican scum ? America is a rather twisted and nasty place in many ways. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think you contradict yourself. If science is about objective reality and religion is a belief system then you can’t compare the positive and negative elements as if they’re the same. The benefits of science and it drawbacks are about how we choose to use it. To heal or to kill. To solve problems or create them. I’d say religion is like that. Positive and negative are positive and negative; they compare just fine. Science does not prescribe behavior; it lets you make up your own mind. Religion tells you what to do; it deserves more blame. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/69 "2005-10-08T05:18:46Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > > [@Trust](#): > > > > The thing is that I know how realistic I am and I just cannot deny Christ. I have too much proof. Just like I have more proof saying there is a God vs. matter come out of nowhere. > > There is proof that matter comes out of nowhere; they are called virtual particles. Come to think of it isn’t God portrayed in Genesis as having created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? On the other hand there is the question - Where did the virtual particles come from? Just like there is the question - Where did God come from? The religious answer to the second question is that God didn’t come from anywhere, He always existed. But if anything always existed it might as well be virtual particles as to be God. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/70 "2005-10-08T05:37:51Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Come to think of it isn’t God portrayed in Genesis as having created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? > > On the other hand there is the question - Where did the virtual particles come from? Just like there is the question - Where did God come from? > > The religious answer to the second question is that God didn’t come from anywhere, He always existed. But if anything always existed it might as well be virtual particles as to be God. Virtual particles come from spacetime; they are manifestations of the Uncertainty Principle. Since there is no evidence gods exist, I can’t answer about divine origins. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/71 "2005-10-08T05:55:25Z")
I challenge the idea that the Holocaust arose from religious persecution. I believe that it was primarily ethnic. And of course there were others besides the Jews. > [@](#): > > Among other things, the fact that brain damage damages people’s minds and that drugs affect them is evidence against an afterlife. All the evidence we have says the mind comes from the brain, and if the brain dies so does the mind. There is no evidence for an afterlife; it’s all faith. A drug’s ability to alter the mind’s perception of reality has lead a lot of people to question what might seem to some to be the obvious. I would differ with you in saying that there _may_ be some evidence for an afterlife, but certainly no proof of it. And yes, it’s all faith. Don’t confuse the teachings (Christianity) with those who say they are practitioners (Christians). Although you may find an occasion verse with some strange suggestion that you “smite your enemy,” or kill someone, such passages are anomalies. The overall teachings of the Christ were about love, compassion, non-judgment and forgiveness. Can the teachings be distorted and horrible things done under the name of Christianity? Your list answers that well. But that doesn’t mean that these Christians were practicing the teachings at the time anymore than some extremeists are today. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/72 "2005-10-08T06:55:54Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Virtual particles come from spacetime; OK, go back one step. Where did spacetime come from? I’m being a Devil’s Advocate here. You and I seem to be in fundamental agreement on the main points. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/73 "2005-10-08T07:05:47Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Don’t confuse the teachings (Christianity) with those who say they are practitioners (Christians). Although you may find an occasion verse with some strange suggestion that you “smite your enemy,” or kill someone, such passages are anomalies. The overall teachings of the Christ were about love, compassion, non-judgment and forgiveness. > > Can the teachings be distorted and horrible things done under the name of Christianity? Your list answers that well. But that doesn’t mean that these Christians were practicing the teachings at the time anymore than some extremeists are today. It does appear to me, though, that in order to select certain teachings “about love, compassion, non-judgment and forgiveness” from those telling the Disciples that towns that don’t accept them will be treated worse than Sodom and Gomorra (Matthew) you have to rely on pinciples from sources outside the New Testament. Why would you accept a part and reject the other if you rely only on the Testament? The picture I get from the New Testament is that Jesus is portrayed as solicitous of those who follow Him and contemptuous and even hostile to those who don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/74 "2005-10-08T08:34:39Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > OK, go back one step. Where did spacetime come from? > > I’m being a Devil’s Advocate here. You and I seem to be in fundamental agreement on the main points. A : It always existed or B : It came from something else we don’t know. However, unlike a god, spacetime is simple, basic. A simple thing appearing from some primal chaos is far more logical than a god. When was the last time anyone say a superhuman being appear from nowhere ? The universe goes from simple to complex; not the other way around. At this point there isn’t enough data; we can’t really know. > [@Zoe](#): > > Don’t confuse the teachings (Christianity) with those who say they are practitioners (Christians). Although you may find an occasion verse with some strange suggestion that you “smite your enemy,” or kill someone, such passages are anomalies. The overall teachings of the Christ were about love, compassion, non-judgment and forgiveness. > > Can the teachings be distorted and horrible things done under the name of Christianity? Your list answers that well. But that doesn’t mean that these Christians were practicing the teachings at the time anymore than some extremeists are today. The nasty parts are just as valid as the nice ones. The people who commit atrocities and oppressions and foolishness are following the internal logic of Christianity much more than those who do nice things. After all, “tolerant” and “monotheism” don’t fit together well. Neither do “rational” and “revelation”. That’s why I made the comment about “perverting it to a benevolent religion”. At it’s heart, Christianity is a exceedingly nasty thing, with a strong tendency to promote very bad behavior. People who try to make it do good are working against it’s nature. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/75 "2005-10-08T13:15:08Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > So you want yet another list of Bad Things Done In The Name Of Religion ? Very well, here’s some : Thirty Years War; Protestent/Catholic conflict in Ireland; the Inquisition; the Crusades; burkas; the Taliban; faith healing; the breakup and conflict between India and Pakistan; the suppression of ether for use in childbirth to punish women; the destruction of a wide range of native cultures; the Holocaust; 9-11; suppression of stem cell research; the war against abortion; suppression of evolution in schools; attempts to suppress research and education about drug resistence in diseases; witch hunts; the suppression of life extension research; suppression of geocentrism; and on and on… Meaningless in proving your point. Just a list. Your claim is that the evil done by religion far outweighs the good. That means showing _both_ sides not just the one that supports your assertion. For example. You mention the Holocaust. Was it mainly Christians that stopped Hitler? You mention supression of evolution in schools. Does religion get credit for being instrumental in establishing our educational sustem? By your standards then every act of kindness by any person that professes to believe should be in the plus column. Every meal served by the salvation army. Every nickle given by a believer to a begger on the street. If the guy who developed penicilin happened to believe in God then that goes into the plus column right? Religious belief has been so intertwined with the history of humanity in general that it seems like most major accomplishments and catastrophies might be traced to religion. You’ve thrown out Occums Razor a few times. He was religious so I guess that goes in the plus column for religion right? > [@](#): > > You assume I admire America. I don’t, I just live here. I assume no such thing. I merely mentioned America’s _accomplishments_. We do have some don’t we? > [@](#): > > I said “it tends to”, not “does”. Evidence ? How about the outright terroristic anti-abortion movement, Catholic child molesting and the coverup, religiously motivated misogyny, hatred of the poor, antisemitism, the anti-gay crusade, the degradation of science education to please the religious, the anti-stem cell crusade, the religiously blessed massacre and persecution of the Native Americans and blacks, the election of Bush and his fellow Republican scum ? America is a rather twisted and nasty place in many ways. To me\* tends to \* means more likely than not. That would mean that over 50% of all believers in this country would exhibit those awful traits you mentioned. Sometimes, or occasionaly, would be different. Does it count that believers will be instrumental in gaining rights for gays, just as they were in the civil rights movement and womens rights. > [@](#): > > Positive and negative are positive and negative; they compare just fine. Science does not prescribe behavior; it lets you make up your own mind. Religion tells you what to do; it deserves more blame. Ah… This might even be progress. So the pluses and minuses of science have to do with the choices people make and how they use it. Let’s see if that applies to religion. Hmmm Christ says love thy neighbor as thyself but people pervert that and then tell others that their perversion is the word of God so it would seem that the choice to pervert his teachings has something to do with it. Now we see different religious groups so we know that not all religious people choose the same thing. Some choose to use their religion for good. Others use it for evil purposes. Eureka!! **Der Trihs** As unlikely as it sounds, you and I, who agree on very little, have discovered the crux of the problem. It isn’t science and it isn’t religion. It’s **choice**. That’s the problem. There seems to be inherent evil built into chooseing. The solution seems obvious. We just make sure people can only choose good things while still respecting their rights. Hmmmm…that may be trickier than I thought. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/76 "2005-10-08T13:27:01Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > That’s why I made the comment about “perverting it to a benevolent religion”. At it’s heart, Christianity is a exceedingly nasty thing, with a strong tendency to promote very bad behavior. People who try to make it do good are working against it’s nature. Jeez Louise; Here’s another example of an assertion you can’t prove in any way. You’re really crackin me up these past few days. Other than a few select verses weren’t the bulk of Christ’s teachings about peace and love for our fellow man? ---
**Author:** ![Trust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Trust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trust)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/77 "2005-10-08T13:45:59Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Sorry for the confusion. Let me clarify. In my view worshiping God means having great reverence for, and making a commitment to, the truth. As Jesus describes it it is it is to love and truth. Those are eternal qualities. That means seeking the truth above religious tradition and myth. Christianity has some beliefs that are built on tradition and myth such as the one I mentioned {God wrote the Bible}There are mountains of evidence that this is not true and yet people who say they worship God can’t seem to honestly look at the Bible. That’s one example. I believe the truth does set us free, but we don’t see the whole picture. That takes time and discipline. > Is that better? What I dont see is how you are saying that God wrote the Bible is a myth. A clear distinction I am noticing is the knowledge of a spirit or the lack of knowledge(or right out disbelief) of a spirit. It’s easiest to refer to our own spirit. I know there are some of the smartest people in the world who know(believe) there is a spirit. The hard thing is trying to describe or put it scientifically. When I touch something hot, I feel that its hot. In the same way I can feel my spirit. The problem is that it is not as easily explained. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > The fact that some things cannot be proven conclusively doesn’t free people to believe whatever they wish against a preponderance of evidence. I’ve seen believers from different faiths cling to any lame illogical explanation to hold on to beliefs they should let go of. I suppose understand, but it’s hard to respect it. > It’s similar to someone being so patriotic that they are irrational and unrealistic about the flaws of this country. Or someone loving a child so much they are blind to their flaws. Jesus told us that tradition and the teachings of men should never come between us and the truth. Does that make sense to you? Yes. I agree with you. Thats why I am here. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not a big fan of the popular concept of sin. For the sake of this conversation how will we define it? I might say that sin is whatever seperates us from God and each other. Since the essence of God is love and truth then anything contrary to those to principles might be considered sin. Do you agree? I dislike the connotations people have put on the word sin. Mostly extreme religious people using the word to further themselves. I agree with your definition of sin, yes. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > The Bible tells us that belief isn’t enough. It’s what you value. What is the foundation that your life is built upon. Not just in words but what is reflected in your actions. Anyone can go to church and sing praises to God and say praise Jesus. They might even mean it at the time. The test is what happens during the rest of the week. When opportunities present themselves and we are tested to see what kind of people we really are. What happens then? You said exactly what I feel is a huge problem with “religion”. Relationship takes hard work. Religion is simply a set of rules that prevent you from hurting yourself or seperation from God. Relationship \> Religion ---
**Author:** ![Trust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Trust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trust)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/78 "2005-10-08T14:06:25Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > I was speaking in terms of it’s net effect of course; no large movements have only good or bad effects. For example, I’ve heard that Nazi Germany had a very enlightened forestry policy; that doesn’t outweigh the negatives. The negatives of Christianity, and religion is general, outweigh the positives. In fact, I’ll be plain : even if I believed religion to be true, I’d still oppose believing it or following it. I find it morally corrupt, irrational, and philosophically disgusting. It also tends to warp people, making them irrational and amoral, or outright malignant. I understand your argument. Religion can be a very terrible thing. I completely agree. The point you are failing to see is that you are talking about extremist. These people in no way reflect what Christ is about. We both know you are not being true to yourself. Loving one another is not anywhere near being “morally corrupt” and you know it. There is a huge wall blocking your view of christianity. Scientifically speaking I am sure you know what it means to discriminate people. You are making an assumption of other people based on a few peoples views(character). You have a logical point when you talk about some of the negative effects of relgion, but instead of keeping your arguments logical, you go on to say loving one another is morally corrupt. You very well know that your argument does not work in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![Trust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Trust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trust)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/79 "2005-10-08T14:13:39Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > That’s why I made the comment about “perverting it to a benevolent religion”. At it’s heart, Christianity is a exceedingly nasty thing, with a strong tendency to promote very bad behavior. People who try to make it do good are working against it’s nature. This is just out right ludicrous. Do you honestly think that your argument works here? Christs nature is for the good of all humanity. For people who dont deserve to live (aka me). There is nothing that encourages bad behavior. It all encourages love, compassion, and forgiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Trust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Trust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trust)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/80 "2005-10-08T14:28:28Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Why would you accept a part and reject the other if you rely only on the Testament? The picture I get from the New Testament is that Jesus is portrayed as solicitous of those who follow Him and contemptuous and even hostile to those who don’t. Not 100 percent sure if you were talking to me about how I said I dont know what I believe about the beginning and end of the Bible. Assuming thats what you are saying, the reason I said that is because I simply have not researched it enough. I think you are forgetting just how thick-headed we can be. Christ came to save people who were about themselves and not for the creator and others (aka all of us). Truthfully speaking, looking at myself, I should have been considered worthless. If you willingly took the hit for everyone else (very well knowing that it was the most unjust thing you could do) and noone accepted you, would you be all thrilled? Of coarse not. The option to accept or reject is put out on the table. He is not forcing anyone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007.md?page=5)