# What does it make sense to believe without evidence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007 "2005-10-06T04:51:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/141 "2005-10-11T05:57:00Z")
[QUOTE] > [@David Simmons](#): > > It does seem to me that on balance religion as it has been practiced is a drag on society. The good that religion does would be done in any case I think. I’m not sure thats a realistic statement. Some people are kind and charitable without religion. That doesn’t mean all people could be kind and charitable without religion. Couldn’t we as easily guess that without religion all that evil would have been done anyway? > [@](#): > > Even those without religion are not without charity for the victims of disaster. That just leaves the evil. I don’t think that religion causes evil necessarily, but those who are evil anyway for whatever reason can certainly find their justification in the Bible. Or someplace else if religion didn’t exist. I think whatever dark part of our humanity is the source of evil would exist without religion. That part of our psyche that seperates people into "us"vs.“them” or lusts for power and riches, would still find expression without religion. That doesn’t excuse religion from its heinous acts. I also think there’s a certain sense of wonder and desire to know the things we wonder about that is essential to human growth. To get rid of religion we’d have to get rid of that part of us and I believe we’d be much worse off without it. > [@](#): > > We might be better off if religion had never existed but we’re now stuck with it. I think the best we can expect is that over time its evil aspects will be ameliorated by external forces as has been the case in the past. Or even internal forces. I happen to be a member of “Christians who think Bush is a heinous, hypocritical,lying piece of shit” We get new members daily who just see the group name and utter a sincere Amen!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/142 "2005-10-11T06:06:14Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] > [@](#): > > Couldn’t we as easily guess that without religion all that evil would have been done anyway? No, we can not. Sure, no one is saying that ALL religion is caused by evil, but in my opinion, much of it is. Not enough that earth would be a Utopia, but certainly a lot. Why do I believe that? Well, there are a lot of reasons. Let me give you one to chew on now, before I go to bed. Please note that while the following might sound to you like a strawman, it is reflected in the very real upbringings of many atheist. A child is given a book called the Old Testament. His parents, who he believes without question, tells him it is the best book in the world, and he can learn how to be good from it. The book actually contains horrors along with the moral teachings. Some children reject the teachings due to bloody revenge given equal footing with the moral lessons, while others adopt the same morals as the heroes of the book. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/143 "2005-10-11T12:43:35Z")
[QUOTE=Scott Plaid] > [@cosmosdan](#): > > No, we can not. Sure, no one is saying that ALL religion is caused by evil, but in my opinion, much of it is. Not enough that earth would be a Utopia, but certainly a lot. Why do I believe that? Well, there are a lot of reasons. Let me give you one to chew on now, before I go to bed. > > Please note that while the following might sound to you like a strawman, it is reflected in the very real upbringings of many atheist. > > A child is given a book called the Old Testament. His parents, who he believes without question, tells him it is the best book in the world, and he can learn how to be good from it. The book actually contains horrors along with the moral teachings. Some children reject the teachings due to bloody revenge given equal footing with the moral lessons, while others adopt the same morals as the heroes of the book. Once again **Scott**. I don’t this has anything to do with what you quoted from me. \*\*David \*\* said without religion the good would be done anyway since non religious people do good. Useing that kind of reasoning it seems fair to assume that all the evil done by religion would be done anyway since non religious people do bad stuff too. Does that seem a fair assumption, or am I useing David’s own reasoning incorrectly? I’m all for rejecting the Bible as some divine guidebook to life wrtten by God. I genuinely believe that wide spread false teaching holds back the development of individuals and society. {As any false belief does I suppose} Most of the Christians I know and have had discussions with know what I think. I try to approach it from the aspect of caring about the truth over tradition and an honest reasoned look at the evidence available to us. People will only let go of those beliefs when they are ready. I really don’t know what point you’re trying to make with your story. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/144 "2005-10-11T13:06:30Z")
**Trust** Here are the other passages I referenced that to me clearly reflect the gender bias of a 2000 year old civilization. In fact it took almost the full 2000 years for us to make significant progress. > [@](#): > > 1 Corinthians 11 > 1Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. > 2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[a] just as I passed them on to you. > 3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And **every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head** —it is just as though her head were shaved. **6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off** ; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. **7A man ought not to cover his head,** since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.\*\* 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. > > ``` > 11In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. **13Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him** , 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God. > > ``` > [@](#): > > A Tim 2: 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. **12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent**. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved\*\* through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. If you read these two passages and think, “Well God said it so it must be true, even if it doesn’t seem logical to our human minds” I would say you’re clinging to a traditon rather than seeking the truth, and allowing that traditon to define much of how you view the world. As I said, there is no evidence in any of the books of the Bible that God intended us to use it as our final authoritative guide to his will and the “rules of life” It’s a tradition that rose out of man’s need for a physical ecternal authority. I think what Jesus taught seek love and truth sincerely, and seach your heart and deeds for them. Look within and have faith that the Spirit will be there to guide you. ---
**Author:** ![Trust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Trust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trust)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/145 "2005-10-11T13:49:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Sin is whatever the writers of what they claim are holy books consider bad at the time. Working on the Sabbath was a far greater sin than homosexuality. Sin is bullshit. Calling things that hurt no one sin is triple bullshit. > > What a horrible concept. It’s like saying that a kid who doesn’t get 100% on all his tests is stupid. 2,000 years ago they came up with the concept that everyone is evil and go to hell unless you pay the Church for the get out of hell card - today they say that your breath is horrid and you’ll never get the girl without buying the right mouthwash. And the gullible fall for it. > Yes it is coarse. (Good Freudian slip there.) By your definition I’m hella gay (not that there’s anything wrong with it.) Would surprise the hell out of my wife. > > And you consider them less equal - you don’t think anyone who doesn’t toe your line deserves happiness. You’re going to be saying some of my best friends are gay next. > > What does being a crack baby have to do with evil desires? Do they deserve it? Who’s responsible for someone being born with evil desires anyway? (Hint - Adam and Eve never existed.) > You should check up on Abraham and Sarah’s adventures in Egypt some time. The only negative consequences I can see are when someone is so beset by religious guilt trips that they turn a good relationship into a bad one. I’m too much of a heathen to ever be bothered by this. > > And I’ve had lots of self-fulfilling ideas that don’t escape “sin” of the body. 😃 > > Sex in violation of trust is bad. You don’t need god to figure that out. Besides that - the divorce rate is going down, especially among young people, and less religious states have lower divorce rates than more religious states. > > For us, we got married in a basically atheistic institution with the name of God never mentioned. Hasn’t seemed to have hurt. All that stuff is so two millenia ago. Your entire argument implies that there is no God. I obviously do not feel as you do. Your points are well taken. ---
**Author:** ![Trust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Trust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trust)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/146 "2005-10-11T13:54:40Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > So what? Did you say so what? My dear **Trust**. The fact that you actually think God wanted to show that makes me think we won’t have much to talk about. Isn’t it obvious that passage is just a refelection of the gender bias of an ancient civilzation and “The Lord said” part is just completly false. The Lord said no such thing because it’s ridiculous. This is a prime example of what I call putting a tradtional belief about the Bible ahead of the truth. “It’s in the Bible so it must be true no matter how illogical or unreasonable it is” My point in saying this is that it’s not something that you can easily decipher. I think your argument applies more consistently to how a verse talks about how God stopped the sun. This would imply the logic of that day was used over what God would have truely said. This is something I have to take a hard look at. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/147 "2005-10-11T14:13:56Z")
> [@Trust](#): > > My point in saying this is that it’s not something that you can easily decipher. I think your argument applies more consistently to how a verse talks about how > God stopped the sun. This would imply the logic of that day was used over what God would have truely said. This is something I have to take a hard look at. I’m not sure what you mean. It seems fairly clear to me. It seems clearly presented as if God has the same gender bias that ran through that culture. I expect the attitudes of the cluture and the signs of the times to be reflected in a religion. What I find unacceptable is for those attitudes to be called God’s will. Woman don’t teach or preach. If that’s presented as a particular denominations tradition then it’s just folks exercising their right to choose. If it’s presented as God’s will because of a 2000 year old book, then somone is just plain ole wrong. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/148 "2005-10-11T14:17:46Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not sure thats a realistic statement. Some people are kind and charitable without religion. That doesn’t mean all people could be kind and charitable without religion. Couldn’t we as easily guess that without religion all that evil would have been done anyway? > Or someplace else if religion didn’t exist. I think whatever dark part of our humanity is the source of evil would exist without religion. That part of our psyche that seperates people into "us"vs.“them” or lusts for power and riches, would still find expression without religion. That doesn’t excuse religion from its heinous acts. > I also think there’s a certain sense of wonder and desire to know the things we wonder about that is essential to human growth. To get rid of religion we’d have to get rid of that part of us and I believe we’d be much worse off without it. > > Or even internal forces. I happen to be a member of “Christians who think Bush is a heinous, hypocritical,lying piece of shit” We get new members daily who just see the group name and utter a sincere Amen!! 😉 Well, all people with religion aren’t kind and charitable either, and all without it aren’t evil. Maybe it’s just a case that people, being gregarious animals, would find a way to make do in social relations from day to day, sometimes well and sometimes badly, with or without religion. In any event, I don’t think this statement > [@](#): > > I also think there’s a certain sense of wonder and desire to know the things we wonder about that is essential to human growth. applies to religion. I really can’t see how it lets us know anything at all about the things we wonder about. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/149 "2005-10-11T14:34:22Z")
[QUOTE] > [@David Simmons](#): > > Well, all people with religion aren’t kind and charitable either, and all without it aren’t evil. Absolutly right. Maybe it’s just a case that people, being gregarious animals, would find a way to make do in social relations from day to day, sometimes well and sometimes badly, with or without religion. > [@](#): > > In any event, I don’t think this statement applies to religion. I really can’t see how it lets us know anything at all about the things we wonder about. For many folks it’s a sense of wonder about and questioning about “why are we here?” What happens after my body dies?" and stuff like that. It’s like this, If it wasn’t for the early mythology where men wondered about flight and created stories about men flying, we may have never come to planes etc. ---
**Author:** ![Trust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Trust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trust)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/150 "2005-10-11T15:50:29Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > **Trust** > > Here are the other passages I referenced that to me clearly reflect the gender bias of a 2000 year old civilization. In fact it took almost the full 2000 years for us to make significant progress. > > If you read these two passages and think, “Well God said it so it must be true, even if it doesn’t seem logical to our human minds” I would say you’re clinging to a traditon rather than seeking the truth, and allowing that traditon to define much of how you view the world. > As I said, there is no evidence in any of the books of the Bible that God intended us to use it as our final authoritative guide to his will and the “rules of life” It’s a tradition that rose out of man’s need for a physical ecternal authority. I think what Jesus taught seek love and truth sincerely, and seach your heart and deeds for them. Look within and have faith that the Spirit will be there to guide you. You make a very good point. Those quotes do seem to imply the ideas of that day. I am not 100 percent convinced about the interpretation but I completely see your point. What are your thoughts on the stopping of the sun? You have to admit that your quotes about woman could be slightly open to interpretation. This seems to be more concrete. If the earth moves around the sun, how could the sun stop? If the sun stopped in the universe, wouldnt the earth stray far away from the sun in minutes killing all life? The only possible explanation I can see is that at the time it would not make sense to the people for the earth to stop/move. This however does not cut it for me. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/151 "2005-10-11T16:40:38Z")
> [@Trust](#): > > What are your thoughts on the stopping of the sun? … If the earth moves around the sun, how could the sun stop? If the sun stopped in the universe, wouldnt the earth stray far away from the sun in minutes killing all life? The only possible explanation I can see is that at the time it would not make sense to the people for the earth to stop/move. This however does not cut it for me. The account refers to stopping the sun in its path across the sky. The sun was stopped in order to provide daylight so that the Israelites could win the battle. The length of the day is determined by the rotation of the earth on its axis and not the movement of the earth around the sun or the sun through the galaxy. And it didn’t happen. Stopping the sun’s path across the sky instantly or nearly so would require stopping the rotation of the earth instantly or nearly so. Objects on the surface of the earth at the latitude of the Middle East are traveling about 800 mph. Stopping them in a short time span, along with the surface of the earth, would subject them and the material of the earth to crushing acceleration. In fact if you stopped the rotation in 100 ft. of surface travel the acceleration would have been about 430 times the acceleration of gravity. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/152 "2005-10-11T20:37:09Z")
> [@Trust](#): > > Your entire argument implies that there is no God. I obviously do not feel as you do. Your points are well taken. Well, if there is a god, he can do and demand whatever he wishes, and put anyone he wants to in hell. What is more interesting is the morality of god. Does God set morality? f so, you must say that slavery and killing those who work on the Sabbath is moral. Since most people won’t agree to this, then our society is more moral than God. When God changes his mind, does morality change with it? If there is an absolute standard of morality, independent of God, then God is just reflecting this morality which is set how? So there are big problems even if you believe in God. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/153 "2005-10-11T20:48:44Z")
> [@Trust](#): > > What are your thoughts on the stopping of the sun? You have to admit that your quotes about woman could be slightly open to interpretation. This seems to be more concrete. If the earth moves around the sun, how could the sun stop? If the sun stopped in the universe, wouldnt the earth stray far away from the sun in minutes killing all life? The only possible explanation I can see is that at the time it would not make sense to the people for the earth to stop/move. This however does not cut it for me. Clearly this was written from the perspective of those who believed that the sun moved around the earth. Yeah, it would kill anyone, but even if god magically cancelled inertia, you must recall that no one else in the entire world noticed that the Sun stopped. Anyhow, why would God even need to do that? Wouldn’t a big hulkin’ holy flashlight aimed at the battle site be more efficient? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/154 "2005-10-12T00:38:13Z")
> [@Trust](#): > > You make a very good point. Those quotes do seem to imply the ideas of that day. I am not 100 percent convinced about the interpretation but I completely see your point. > > What are your thoughts on the stopping of the sun? You have to admit that your quotes about woman could be slightly open to interpretation. This seems to be more concrete. If the earth moves around the sun, how could the sun stop? If the sun stopped in the universe, wouldnt the earth stray far away from the sun in minutes killing all life? The only possible explanation I can see is that at the time it would not make sense to the people for the earth to stop/move. This however does not cut it for me. I’m not a student of the OT but I assume you mean the battle in Joshua 10. I love the words of Jesus but the more I read the Old Testament the more I wonder how people can believe it is the word of God and an accurate telling of God’s interactions with men. > [@](#): > > 11 As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the LORD hurled large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites. I don’t think God stopped the sun or hurled large hailstones to kill people. I;m going to guess that you believe we are all children of God. Isn’t that what Jesus taught? When my kids used to fight each other sometimes I got upset, but I never killed that one that wasn’t my favorite, and I’m a flawed human. ---
**Author:** ![Trust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Trust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trust)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/155 "2005-10-12T01:41:33Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not a student of the OT but I assume you mean the battle in Joshua 10. I love the words of Jesus but the more I read the Old Testament the more I wonder how people can believe it is the word of God and an accurate telling of God’s interactions with men. > I don’t think God stopped the sun or hurled large hailstones to kill people. I;m going to guess that you believe we are all children of God. Isn’t that what Jesus taught? When my kids used to fight each other sometimes I got upset, but I never killed that one that wasn’t my favorite, and I’m a flawed human. Basically I have come to the same generalization you have. Everytime I read the Bible I open it to the very beginning of the new testament. Always with Christs life or teachings. I couldnt find the same spiritual truth in the old testament that I found from the beginning of the new testament. I also couldnt find the same truth from the end of the new testament as Christs teachings. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/156 "2005-10-12T02:02:16Z")
> [@Trust](#): > > Basically I have come to the same generalization you have. Everytime I read the Bible I open it to the very beginning of the new testament. Always with Christs life or teachings. I couldnt find the same spiritual truth in the old testament that I found from the beginning of the new testament. I also couldnt find the same truth from the end of the new testament as Christs teachings. I know what you mean. At one point I was trying to compile only the words of Jesus in order from the four gospels. I got sidetracked but still have what I’d done so far. I am deeply moved by the story of Christ and his teachings, but I don’t make the same connections with the OT. I think the feeling your getting about spiritual truth is correct. Go where it leads you. Trust it to guide you correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/157 "2005-10-12T18:22:41Z")
> [@Trust](#): > > Basically I have come to the same generalization you have. Everytime I read the Bible I open it to the very beginning of the new testament. Always with Christs life or teachings. I couldnt find the same spiritual truth in the old testament that I found from the beginning of the new testament. I also couldnt find the same truth from the end of the new testament as Christs teachings. There is no God and Jesus is his son. 🙂 Spiritual truths are true no matter if they come from an accurate narration, an inaccurate narration, or a totally made up story. But I hope they are moderated by your heart as well as your reading. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/158 "2005-10-12T19:57:11Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There is no God and Jesus is his son. 🙂 > > Spiritual truths are true no matter if they come from an accurate narration, an inaccurate narration, or a totally made up story. But I hope they are moderated by your heart as well as your reading. Well put. From personal experience I understand how hard it is to let go of long held “traditional truth”. There can be pretty strong social and emotional resistance. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/159 "2005-10-12T22:00:01Z")
I wonder how much good works the[archdiocese of Los Angeles](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lapriest12oct12,0,4555379.story?coll=la-home-headlines) should do to make up for this. It’s sort of odd how many people will believe all kinds of things without evidence but refuse to believe this in the face of lots of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007/160 "2005-10-12T22:46:36Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I wonder how much good works the[archdiocese of Los Angeles](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lapriest12oct12,0,4555379.story?coll=la-home-headlines) should do to make up for this. > > It’s sort of odd how many people will believe all kinds of things without evidence but refuse to believe this in the face of lots of evidence. Who do you know that’s refusing to believe it? I pretty much lost all respect for the catholic church when this scandal first came out. Hearing that some priests were pedophiles was bad enough but what outraged me even more was the fact that the church decided to hide this horrible crime repeatedly in order to protect the church. They should have thrown a shitload of them in prison. The ones who committed the crimes and the ones who covered it up. I was also suprised to find decent people still holding on to their “I’m Catholic” tradition even though many Catholics are only niminally religious anyway. When the media covered all the pomp and circumstance of the new Pope this year I thought "Who really gives a crap? I truly wonder after this kind of scandal why more people don’t renounce their Catholicism. If I found out a few leaders of my church were pedophiles I might be able to maintain faith if the church dealt with it decisively, but upon discovering other church leaders had been covering it up for years that would be the end of any respect or realistic spiritual feeling for that organization. I also wonder if the church has sought out those who covered it up and kicked their asses out as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-make-sense-to-believe-without-evidence/325007.md?page=9)