I’m not sure thats a realistic statement. Some people are kind and charitable without religion. That doesn’t mean all people could be kind and charitable without religion. Couldn’t we as easily guess that without religion all that evil would have been done anyway?
Or someplace else if religion didn’t exist. I think whatever dark part of our humanity is the source of evil would exist without religion. That part of our psyche that seperates people into "us"vs.“them” or lusts for power and riches, would still find expression without religion. That doesn’t excuse religion from its heinous acts.
I also think there’s a certain sense of wonder and desire to know the things we wonder about that is essential to human growth. To get rid of religion we’d have to get rid of that part of us and I believe we’d be much worse off without it.
Or even internal forces. I happen to be a member of “Christians who think Bush is a heinous, hypocritical,lying piece of shit” We get new members daily who just see the group name and utter a sincere Amen!!
No, we can not. Sure, no one is saying that ALL religion is caused by evil, but in my opinion, much of it is. Not enough that earth would be a Utopia, but certainly a lot. Why do I believe that? Well, there are a lot of reasons. Let me give you one to chew on now, before I go to bed.
Please note that while the following might sound to you like a strawman, it is reflected in the very real upbringings of many atheist.
A child is given a book called the Old Testament. His parents, who he believes without question, tells him it is the best book in the world, and he can learn how to be good from it. The book actually contains horrors along with the moral teachings. Some children reject the teachings due to bloody revenge given equal footing with the moral lessons, while others adopt the same morals as the heroes of the book.
Once again Scott. I don’t this has anything to do with what you quoted from me. **David ** said without religion the good would be done anyway since non religious people do good. Useing that kind of reasoning it seems fair to assume that all the evil done by religion would be done anyway since non religious people do bad stuff too. Does that seem a fair assumption, or am I useing David’s own reasoning incorrectly?
I’m all for rejecting the Bible as some divine guidebook to life wrtten by God. I genuinely believe that wide spread false teaching holds back the development of individuals and society. {As any false belief does I suppose} Most of the Christians I know and have had discussions with know what I think. I try to approach it from the aspect of caring about the truth over tradition and an honest reasoned look at the evidence available to us. People will only let go of those beliefs when they are ready.
I really don’t know what point you’re trying to make with your story.
Here are the other passages I referenced that to me clearly reflect the gender bias of a 2000 year old civilization. In fact it took almost the full 2000 years for us to make significant progress.
If you read these two passages and think, “Well God said it so it must be true, even if it doesn’t seem logical to our human minds” I would say you’re clinging to a traditon rather than seeking the truth, and allowing that traditon to define much of how you view the world.
As I said, there is no evidence in any of the books of the Bible that God intended us to use it as our final authoritative guide to his will and the “rules of life” It’s a tradition that rose out of man’s need for a physical ecternal authority. I think what Jesus taught seek love and truth sincerely, and seach your heart and deeds for them. Look within and have faith that the Spirit will be there to guide you.
My point in saying this is that it’s not something that you can easily decipher. I think your argument applies more consistently to how a verse talks about how
God stopped the sun. This would imply the logic of that day was used over what God would have truely said. This is something I have to take a hard look at.
I’m not sure what you mean. It seems fairly clear to me. It seems clearly presented as if God has the same gender bias that ran through that culture. I expect the attitudes of the cluture and the signs of the times to be reflected in a religion. What I find unacceptable is for those attitudes to be called God’s will.
Woman don’t teach or preach. If that’s presented as a particular denominations tradition then it’s just folks exercising their right to choose. If it’s presented as God’s will because of a 2000 year old book, then somone is just plain ole wrong.
Well, all people with religion aren’t kind and charitable either, and all without it aren’t evil. Maybe it’s just a case that people, being gregarious animals, would find a way to make do in social relations from day to day, sometimes well and sometimes badly, with or without religion.
In any event, I don’t think this statement
applies to religion. I really can’t see how it lets us know anything at all about the things we wonder about.
Absolutly right.
Maybe it’s just a case that people, being gregarious animals, would find a way to make do in social relations from day to day, sometimes well and sometimes badly, with or without religion.
For many folks it’s a sense of wonder about and questioning about “why are we here?” What happens after my body dies?" and stuff like that.
It’s like this, If it wasn’t for the early mythology where men wondered about flight and created stories about men flying, we may have never come to planes etc.
You make a very good point. Those quotes do seem to imply the ideas of that day. I am not 100 percent convinced about the interpretation but I completely see your point.
What are your thoughts on the stopping of the sun? You have to admit that your quotes about woman could be slightly open to interpretation. This seems to be more concrete. If the earth moves around the sun, how could the sun stop? If the sun stopped in the universe, wouldnt the earth stray far away from the sun in minutes killing all life? The only possible explanation I can see is that at the time it would not make sense to the people for the earth to stop/move. This however does not cut it for me.
The account refers to stopping the sun in its path across the sky. The sun was stopped in order to provide daylight so that the Israelites could win the battle. The length of the day is determined by the rotation of the earth on its axis and not the movement of the earth around the sun or the sun through the galaxy.
And it didn’t happen. Stopping the sun’s path across the sky instantly or nearly so would require stopping the rotation of the earth instantly or nearly so. Objects on the surface of the earth at the latitude of the Middle East are traveling about 800 mph. Stopping them in a short time span, along with the surface of the earth, would subject them and the material of the earth to crushing acceleration. In fact if you stopped the rotation in 100 ft. of surface travel the acceleration would have been about 430 times the acceleration of gravity.
Well, if there is a god, he can do and demand whatever he wishes, and put anyone he wants to in hell. What is more interesting is the morality of god.
Does God set morality? f so, you must say that slavery and killing those who work on the Sabbath is moral. Since most people won’t agree to this, then our society is more moral than God. When God changes his mind, does morality change with it?
If there is an absolute standard of morality, independent of God, then God is just reflecting this morality which is set how?
So there are big problems even if you believe in God.
Clearly this was written from the perspective of those who believed that the sun moved around the earth. Yeah, it would kill anyone, but even if god magically cancelled inertia, you must recall that no one else in the entire world noticed that the Sun stopped.
Anyhow, why would God even need to do that? Wouldn’t a big hulkin’ holy flashlight aimed at the battle site be more efficient?
I’m not a student of the OT but I assume you mean the battle in Joshua 10. I love the words of Jesus but the more I read the Old Testament the more I wonder how people can believe it is the word of God and an accurate telling of God’s interactions with men.
I don’t think God stopped the sun or hurled large hailstones to kill people. I;m going to guess that you believe we are all children of God. Isn’t that what Jesus taught? When my kids used to fight each other sometimes I got upset, but I never killed that one that wasn’t my favorite, and I’m a flawed human.
Basically I have come to the same generalization you have. Everytime I read the Bible I open it to the very beginning of the new testament. Always with Christs life or teachings. I couldnt find the same spiritual truth in the old testament that I found from the beginning of the new testament. I also couldnt find the same truth from the end of the new testament as Christs teachings.
I know what you mean. At one point I was trying to compile only the words of Jesus in order from the four gospels. I got sidetracked but still have what I’d done so far.
I am deeply moved by the story of Christ and his teachings, but I don’t make the same connections with the OT. I think the feeling your getting about spiritual truth is correct. Go where it leads you. Trust it to guide you correctly.
Spiritual truths are true no matter if they come from an accurate narration, an inaccurate narration, or a totally made up story. But I hope they are moderated by your heart as well as your reading.
Well put. From personal experience I understand how hard it is to let go of long held “traditional truth”. There can be pretty strong social and emotional resistance.
Who do you know that’s refusing to believe it? I pretty much lost all respect for the catholic church when this scandal first came out. Hearing that some priests were pedophiles was bad enough but what outraged me even more was the fact that the church decided to hide this horrible crime repeatedly in order to protect the church. They should have thrown a shitload of them in prison. The ones who committed the crimes and the ones who covered it up. I was also suprised to find decent people still holding on to their “I’m Catholic” tradition even though many Catholics are only niminally religious anyway. When the media covered all the pomp and circumstance of the new Pope this year I thought "Who really gives a crap?
I truly wonder after this kind of scandal why more people don’t renounce their Catholicism. If I found out a few leaders of my church were pedophiles I might be able to maintain faith if the church dealt with it decisively, but upon discovering other church leaders had been covering it up for years that would be the end of any respect or realistic spiritual feeling for that organization.
I also wonder if the church has sought out those who covered it up and kicked their asses out as well.
