# what does it mean to be "spiritual?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592 "2009-07-28T20:52:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/61 "2009-07-30T18:12:15Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If somebody started a separate GD thread on what love is, if not an emotion, then I’d certainly take an interest in it. (I won’t start such a thread though, because it’s not my thesis. And because I’m shy.) I don’t start threads about those kinds of things generally because I’m not open to neckbeards trampling my flowers. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/62 "2009-07-30T18:15:24Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t start threads about those kinds of things generally because I’m not open to neckbeards trampling my flowers. 😉 Maybe you should use less fertilizer. ---
**Author:** ![silvermist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@silvermist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silvermist)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/63 "2009-07-30T18:21:19Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > I’d say the difference is between listening to the voice of God through some intermediary (pastor, Bible, etc) and tuning into God through a meditative process. Exactly, thank you Cagey. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/64 "2009-07-30T18:23:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The truth is that Protestant zealots were an important part of the revolutionary coalition, but not predominant. [Here’s](http://www.johnreilly.info/fflav.htm) an excellent review/deconstruction (by conservative Catholic intellectual John J. Reilly) of [Marvin Olasky’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Olasky) _Fighting for Liberty and Virtue._ As against Olasky’s thesis, Reilly states: > > See also this article from _The Nation:_ ["Our Godless Constitution.](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen) Right on **BG**. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/65 "2009-07-30T18:40:52Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > To me it means attuned to subtle aspects of life that cannot be fully described in material terms. Or at least to _think_ you are so attuned. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/66 "2009-07-30T19:52:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Nothing is supernatural, all things follow certain laws of the universe including spirituality. People who are not spiritual or don’t believe in spirituality naturally don’t know and understand the laws of spirituality. The same for superpower. It is a natural occurance of becoming spiritual to be able to feel and see things non-spiritual people can not. What are the “laws of spirituality” exactly? If I follow them, can I see things that other people do not? Do things other people are unable to? Examples welcome. As I said, people who are “spiritual but not religeous” believe that there is some higher power or force that one can become more atuned to by behaving in a certain way. While they believe it is a natural part of the universe, the fact that it is unmeasurable and undetectable by know scientific methods would make it supernatural. At best, spiritual people are like anyone who believes in some abstract concept like “good” or “justice”. You cannot measure good or justice. You can’t see or touch it. There are no goodyon or justitron particles. But you can behave in ways that most people would define as good or just. Spiritual people just take it a few steps further by objectifying these abstract ideas to make them appear more tangible. And I suppose it fulfulls some emotional need that makes them think that they know or see things that others do not. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/67 "2009-07-30T19:55:28Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Maybe you should use less fertilizer. Stop being so angry just because you don’t believe in love. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/68 "2009-07-30T19:56:14Z")
I suppose a good counter-example would be a person who claims to be spiritually attuned to the universal concepts of love and harmony yet has no friends because nobody likes him. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/69 "2009-07-30T19:56:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Or at least to _think_ you are so attuned. No, I’ve noticed it being an actual thing from watching groups behave. The way people who have a common spiritual bond behave together, and watching the inept flailing of the person who isn’t attuned to it. Oftentimes skeptical detractors will offer a completely irrelevant criticism trying to debunk something they simply do not understand. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/70 "2009-07-30T19:58:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I suppose a good counter-example would be a person who claims to be spiritually attuned to the universal concepts of love and harmony yet has no friends because nobody likes him. Yes, that’s a good example, but love =/= like. I’ve found that to be a common conception of love that I don’t see reflected in the wider body of literature on the subject. A very common theme is people who love each other but actually cannot stand one another interpersonally. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/71 "2009-07-30T20:22:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No, I’ve noticed it being an actual thing from watching groups behave. The way people who have a common spiritual bond behave together, and watching the inept flailing of the person who isn’t attuned to it. > > Oftentimes skeptical detractors will offer a completely irrelevant criticism trying to debunk something they simply do not understand. My criticism to this “spiritual bond” thing is that communal groups will tend to operate on shared traditions and unspoken conventions and familiarities that outsiders would lack; additionally communal groups will have a shared level of familiarity and trust which will not be shared by, or even necessarily _with_, a newcomer. This is the case for _every_ kind of communal group from churches to families to football teams to debate clubs to violent street gangs. I am therefore doubtful that it is necessary or reasonable to blame such communal behavior on something that would not be possessed by all those groups. > [@mswas](#): > > Yes, that’s a good example, but love =/= like. I’ve found that to be a common conception of love that I don’t see reflected in the wider body of literature on the subject. A very common theme is people who love each other but actually cannot stand one another interpersonally. Love is arguably one of the most poorly- and vaguely-defined words in the english language. (Much more so than, say, “supernatural”.) It personally took me several months of back-of-the-mind consideration before I found a definition that I consider accurate - and I doubt most people share that definition. (I do keep that last fact in mind when using or hearing the word in conversation, though.) Though regarding the ‘counter-example’ itself, love needn’t be two-directional. It would be quite possible by most people’s definitions to have somebody who loved everyone but was universally hated. The contradiction would be somebody who claims to be spiritually attuned to the universal concepts of love and harmony but then didn’t act like they were. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/72 "2009-07-30T20:44:12Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Stop being so angry just because you don’t believe in love. 😉 Why would I need to believe in love? It kept my cat alive this morning when the little bastard got out and I had to chase it down before I could leave for work. Believing in love would be like believing in skin or hair. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/73 "2009-07-30T20:47:13Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Why would I need to believe in love? It kept my cat alive this morning when the little bastard got out and I had to chase it down before I could leave for work. Believing in love would be like believing in skin or hair. LOL, I’m not even going to touch the logical inconsistencies in that one. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/74 "2009-07-30T20:48:58Z")
**begbert2** I guess we need a common definition of ‘spirit’ then. Because people often refer to the ‘spirit’ of a law, or the ‘spirit’, of a nation, or the ‘spirit’ of a family. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/75 "2009-07-30T21:04:14Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, that’s a good example, but love =/= like. Whether or not there’s a difference between “like” and “love”, I don’t know that there’s a difference between being attuned to the universe (or whatever) and only _thinking_ you’re attuned to the universe (or whatever), especially if the latter person simply assumes that negativity is due to bad karma rather than him being a socially clueless numpty. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/76 "2009-07-30T21:05:19Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Whether or not there’s a difference between “like” and “love”, I don’t know that there’s a difference between being attuned to the universe (or whatever) and only _thinking_ you’re attuned to the universe (or whatever), especially if the latter person simply assumes that negativity is due to bad karma rather than him being a socially clueless numpty. Agreed. For me being in tune with the universe is judged by how often I bump into things. I mean literally bump into things. The more aware I am the less likely I am to bump into something. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/77 "2009-07-30T21:14:32Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **begbert2** I guess we need a common definition of ‘spirit’ then. Because people often refer to the ‘spirit’ of a law, or the ‘spirit’, of a nation, or the ‘spirit’ of a family. Couldn’t hurt. Though, it may not always help - those who consider themselves spiritual because they feel awe when they look at a sunset or a particularly awesome sorting algorithm are unlikely to relate their spirituality to spirits of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/78 "2009-07-30T21:19:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by mswas > > To me it means attuned to subtle aspects of life that cannot be fully described in material terms. > > Or at least to _think_ you are so attuned. Or more accurately, to be attuned to subtle aspects of life that you _think_ cannot be fully described in material terms. ETA: Oh, and I’m still waiting for panache45 to explain why, if I think love is a material process, that means that I don’t believe in love. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/79 "2009-07-30T21:30:29Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > ETA: Oh, and I’m still waiting for panache45 to explain why, if I think love is a material process, that means that I don’t believe in love. You don’t believe in material things. That chair you’re sitting on? Material. So you don’t believe in it. More seriously, I suspect the reasoning was that you believe that love is a material process (but you’re wrong and it’s not), so you don’t believe in love (which is something which isn’t a material process). Basically it’s like saying that if you believe in a God that won’t send unbelievers to hell, you don’t actually believe in God - you believe in something else by the same name. Myself I still want to know what love _is_, if not an emotion entirely contained in the mind (and of course, since the mind is embodied by material processes, that means love is too). I was serious when I wanted to know if it could be spread on a cracker. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592/80 "2009-07-30T21:41:57Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Couldn’t hurt. Though, it may not always help - those who consider themselves spiritual because they feel awe when they look at a sunset or a particularly awesome sorting algorithm are unlikely to relate their spirituality to spirits of any kind. To me the term spirit can largely be interchangeable with ‘mood’. Some sort of emergent property that makes seemingly independent units into a cohesive whole. Like a human as a person, their individuality, their personality is their ‘spirit’. The cohesion of a nation would be a ‘mood’ or a ‘spirit’. A word I like is the occult term: [Egregore](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore). I think we are all talking about a spiritual concept when we talk about countries wanting things, ‘What China/Iran/America/Europe wants is…’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-be-spiritual/504592.md?page=5)