# What does it mean to "twist/pervert" a religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229 "2010-09-18T23:10:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![scamartistry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@scamartistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scamartistry)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/1 "2010-09-18T23:10:51Z")
This explanation/defense is often used when trying to deny the fact that terrorist X was inspired by religion Y to commit some horrible action. since it is clearly mandated in many holy books (namely the Koran) that you should kill/stone infidels/nonbelievers under certain given premises. Then when some “maniac” does exactly that, the knee-jerk response from the media/liberal public is that this man had perverted and twisted the religion. When the fact is that this supposedly holy book mandates it. This is Gods advice on how to behave. My thinking would be, if you really, REALLY believed in the these books it wouldn’t be a twisting of it, it would actually be completely rationalistic acting. short: So in what sense are you twisting the religion by doing exactly what it mandates? If anything, arent people in the western world perverting Christianity to make it applicable to modern morals. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/2 "2010-09-18T23:57:10Z")
I don’t think this is answerable in General Questions. Let’s try Great Debates. Moved. **samclem** Moderator, GQ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/3 "2010-09-18T23:59:55Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > since it is clearly mandated in many holy books (namely the Koran) that you should kill/stone infidels/nonbelievers under certain given premises. This is not in the Koran. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/4 "2010-09-19T00:10:17Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > short: So in what sense are you twisting the religion by doing exactly what it mandates? If anything, arent people in the western world perverting Christianity to make it applicable to modern morals. Yes, and I’ve often said so. Primitive barbaric religions are by nature full of primitive barbaric ideas. Making them remotely compatible with modern civilized living requires twisting them like a pretzel. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/5 "2010-09-19T00:29:59Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > since it is clearly mandated in many holy books (namely the Koran) that you should kill/stone infidels/nonbelievers under certain given premises. If it’s “clearly mandated”, why don’t you quote the relevant section. > [@](#): > > short: So in what sense are you twisting the religion by doing exactly what it mandates? If anything, arent people in the western world perverting Christianity to make it applicable to modern morals. This is so vague, I don’t know how anyone can comment on it. Examples, please. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/6 "2010-09-19T00:58:46Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > since it is clearly mandated in many holy books (namely the Koran) that you should kill/stone infidels/nonbelievers under certain given premises. Apparently, it doesn’t. That is, I’m not a religious scholar, nor have I read the Koran, but people who are say it isn’t. [Here’s a brief article addressing the question](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,995072-1,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![DHMO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecc23a/32.png) [@DHMO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DHMO)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/7 "2010-09-19T11:27:39Z")
As a general rule, one should not take the word of a self-professed adherent or apologist when discussing politics, religion or other ideologies. It is best to go to the original source documents (the Constitution, the Bible, the Qu’ran etc.) in order to apprehend the meaning the original authors intended to convey. Many times, zealots shout their interpretation and try to force others to comply, while diligent scholars of the work claim the document(s) say(s) the exact opposite. Regarding whether Islam, as explicated in the Qu’ran, exhorts its followers to kill “infidels”, it is imperative to look to the source. Excerpts have been taken from [IslamiCity.com](http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/) **How does the Qu’ran describe non-believers in Islam?** [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]• 8:55 [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][COLOR=#c0c0c0][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]COLOR=#c0c0c0[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] Verily, the vilest creatures in the sight of Allah are those who are bent on denying the truth and therefore do not believe • 4:76 [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][COLOR=#c0c0c0][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]COLOR=#c0c0c0[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] Those who have attained to faith fight in the cause of Allah, whereas those who are bent on denying the truth fight in the cause of the powers of evil. Fight, then, against those friends of Satan: verily, Satan’s guile is weak indeed![/SIZE][/FONT] **Who does the Qu’ran say are unbelievers?** [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]• 2:120 [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][COLOR=#c0c0c0][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]COLOR=#c0c0c0[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] For, never will the Jews be pleased with thee. nor yet the Christians, unless thou follow their own creeds. Say: “Behold, Allah’s guidance is the only true guidance.” And, indeed, if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee. thou wouldst have none to protect thee from Allah, and none to bring thee succour. • 5:41 [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][COLOR=#c0c0c0][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]COLOR=#c0c0c0[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] O APOSTLE! Be not grieved by those who vie with one another in denying the truth: such as those who say with their mouths, “We believe,” the while their hearts do not believe; and such of the Jewish faith as eagerly listen to any falsehood, eagerly listen to other people without having come to thee [for enlightenment].[/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][see also 2:111, 2:113, 2:135, 4:160, 5:73 and others] [/FONT][/SIZE] **What does the Qu’ran say is to be done with unbelievers?** [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]• 9:5 [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][COLOR=#c0c0c0][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]COLOR=#c0c0c0[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] And so, when the sacred months are over, _ **slay those** _ [emphasis added—DHMO] who ascribe divinity to aught beside Allah wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place. • 9:73 [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][COLOR=#c0c0c0][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]COLOR=#c0c0c0[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] O PROPHET! Strive hard against the deniers of the truth and the hypocrites, and be adamant with them. And [if they do not repent,] their goal shall be hell -and how vile a journey’s end![/SIZE][/FONT] [In this verse, and many more, the word “strive” is used in the context of “holy war”] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][see also 25:52, 66:9, 8:39 and others][/SIZE][/FONT] > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@scamartistry](#): > > > > since it is clearly mandated in many holy books (namely the Koran) that you should kill/stone infidels/nonbelievers under certain given premises. > > If it’s “clearly mandated”, why don’t you quote the relevant section. Will this do? It may very well be true that Islam is a peaceful religion, but I can certainly understand how some people may be inclined to take the Qu’ran at face value and interpret it as encouraging the faithful to target non-believers. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/8 "2010-09-19T11:56:33Z")
Some early Christians viewed non- Christians as Heratics. All through History people have used their religions as a reason to kill others. As ideas evolved there may be less today than 5,000 years( or so )ago. It is the radical’s, not the mainstream believers. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/9 "2010-09-19T13:45:01Z")
> [@DHMO](#): > > [/FONT][/SIZE] **What does the Qu’ran say is to be done with unbelievers?** > > [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]• 9:5 [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][COLOR=#c0c0c0][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]COLOR=#c0c0c0[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] And so, when the sacred months are over, _ **slay those** _ [emphasis added—DHMO] who ascribe divinity to aught beside Allah wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place. > > Will this do? You didn’t quote the whole verse for some reason. The full verse says one of the following (depending on which interpretation you want to use): > [@](#): > > YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. > > PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. > > SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. The bit of the verse you left out leaves the way open to not killing the infidel. Also some interpret that verse as referring to the particular enemies Mohammed was dealing with at that time and not to be taken as referring to all infidels everywhere at all times. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/10 "2010-09-19T13:53:21Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > > [@DHMO](#): > > > > [/FONT][/SIZE] **What does the Qu’ran say is to be done with unbelievers?** > > > > [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]• 9:5 [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][COLOR=#c0c0c0][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]COLOR=#c0c0c0[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] And so, when the sacred months are over, _ **slay those** _ [emphasis added—DHMO] who ascribe divinity to aught beside Allah wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place. > > > > Will this do? > > You didn’t quote the whole verse for some reason. The full verse says one of the following (depending on which interpretation you want to use): > > > [@](#): > > > > YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. > > > > PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. > > > > SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. > > The bit of the verse you left out leaves the way open to not killing the infidel. It leaves the way open to not killing \*all \*of them. But your quoted verses make slaying at least \*some \*of the idolaters a command. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/11 "2010-09-19T13:54:16Z")
In addition, it makes obvious exception for Jews, and arguably, Christians, since neither of them are pagans. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/12 "2010-09-19T13:57:35Z")
The bible, at least the old testement, is chock full of orders to kill those who don’t act the way “God” thinks they should. How many Christians stone family to death for minor things like wearing the wrong kind of cloth or touching the skin of a dead pig? Do I really need to cite the actual verses, or can we all agree these and other similar orders are in there? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/13 "2010-09-19T14:33:58Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > Do I really need to cite the actual verses, or can we all agree these and other similar orders are in there? As long as it doesn’t conflict with the Quran, Muslims also revere the bible including the OT. So, essentially they could pull passages as required from all the books. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/14 "2010-09-19T14:37:02Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > The bible, at least the old testement, is chock full of orders to kill those who don’t act the way “God” thinks they should. How many Christians stone family to death for minor things like wearing the wrong kind of cloth or touching the skin of a dead pig? Those were not capital offenses even in the Mosaic Code. Such transgressions merely demanded ritual cleansing not stoning which was reserved for more significant crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/15 "2010-09-19T17:03:15Z")
Mosaic law said to stone people who worked on the sabbath, women who were raped in the city (women who were raped in the country were allowed to live but were forced to marry their rapists), adulterers, women who did not bleed in their wedding beds, witches, children who talked back to their parents, blasphemers, people of other religions and homosexuals. In the New Testament. Sharia law is basically Mosaic law. In one passage in Luke, Jesus appears to tell his disciples to kill anyone who will not accept him as king. If you want to play these games with holy books, the Bible is as chilling as it gets. ---
**Author:** ![DHMO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecc23a/32.png) [@DHMO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DHMO)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/16 "2010-09-20T09:18:12Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > You didn’t quote the whole verse for some reason. The full verse says one of the following (depending on which interpretation you want to use): > > > [@](#): > > > > • YUSUFALI: …but if they repent… > > • PICKTHAL: …But if they repent… > > • SHAKIR: …then if they repent… > > The bit of the verse you left out leaves the way open to not killing the infidel. The problem here is, the use of “Repent” means that _ **if the unbeliever converts to Islam** _, they will be spared. If they persist, in their stubbornness, to believe in some other faith [Christianity, Judaism, or other], they are still “unbelievers,” and subject to the first clause: > [@](#): > > • 9:5 …_ **slay those** _ who ascribe divinity to aught beside Allah wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place. The word translated as “Pagans” and “Idolaters” is frequently translated as, “…those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Allah…” and “those who deny the truth….” These constructions have been used to describe Christians and Jews, as well as Hindus, Buddhists, polytheists and any other faith, which does not recognize Muhammad as a prophet of the one true God. > [@Ludovic](#): > > In addition, it makes obvious exception for Jews, and arguably, Christians, since neither of them are pagans. Christians are “deniers of the truth” because they believe in the Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit: • 5:73 **(Asad)** Indeed, the truth deny they who say, “Behold, Allah is the third of a trinity” - seeing that there is no deity whatever save the One Allah. The Jews are condemned as well, because, while the Old Testament prophets are incorporated into the Qur’an, and Muslims include both the OT and the Gospels in their beliefs, Jews, by definition, have not accepted Muhammad as a prophet of God: • 4:160 **(Asad)** So, then, for the wickedness committed by those who followed the Jewish faith did We deny unto them certain of the good things of life which [aforetime] had been allowed to them; and [We did this] for their having so often turned away from the path of Allah. My contribution to this debate was intended to answer the original post by **scamartistry** , to wit: > [@scamartistry](#): > > **What does it mean to “twist/pervert” a religion?** > This explanation/defense is often used when trying to deny the fact that terrorist X was inspired by religion Y to commit some horrible action. > since it is clearly mandated in many holy books (namely the Koran) that you should kill/stone infidels/nonbelievers under certain given premises. > Then when some “maniac” does exactly that, the knee-jerk response from the media/liberal public is that this man had perverted and twisted the religion. When the fact is that this supposedly holy book mandates it. This is Gods advice on how to behave. This was first posted in General Questions, but moved to GD by **samclem** Moderator, GQ. The question does have a factual, relevant answer in the positive that, indeed, the Qur’an exhorts its adherents to slay the unbeliever. Posts such as: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@scamartistry](#): > > > > since it is clearly mandated in many holy books (namely the Koran) that you should kill/stone infidels/nonbelievers under certain given premises. > > This is not in the Koran. and > [@WhyNot](#): > > > [@scamartistry](#): > > > > since it is clearly mandated in many holy books (namely the Koran) that you should kill/stone infidels/nonbelievers under certain given premises. > > Apparently, it doesn’t. That is, I’m not a religious scholar, nor have I read the Koran, but people who are say it isn’t. [[COLOR=#800080]Here’s a brief article addressing the question](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,995072-1,00.html).[/COLOR] need to be rebutted to further the fight against ignorance. > [@Mozart1220](#): > > The bible, at least the old testament, is chock full of orders to kill those who don’t act the way “God” thinks they should. How many Christians stone family to death for minor things like wearing the wrong kind of cloth or touching the skin of a dead pig? > > Do I really need to cite the actual verses, or can we all agree these and other similar orders are in there? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > …If you want to play these games with holy books, the Bible is as chilling as it gets. Well, _ **of course** _ you will find similar wording in other religious texts! However, that was not the original question, was it? To say that the Qur’an, or the OT Scriptures, or the NT Gospels contain passages which may be interpreted by those so inclined to command them to slay unbelievers is undeniably true. The question I read was, “ **What does it mean to “twist/pervert” a religion?”** When an adherent of some religious doctrine goes out and performs an act explicitly condoned by his “holy text,” how can that be construed as twisting or perverting the clear and unambiguous language of the sacred writing? We in a modern, civilized society rightly rebuke and condemn those who act in such a barbaric manner. As the OP wondered, how is it that the talking heads in the media, politicians and religious leaders around the world fall in line behind the fallacy that, “such commands are not contained in _ **our** _ Holy Texts!” when, as I have shown, they very plainly are? I will add a few verses from the Gospels to make my point: • Matthew 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. • Luke 10:37 Then said Jesus unto him, “Go, and do thou likewise.” Taking things out of context, the Bible clearly states: “Judas…went away and hanged himself. Go, and do thou likewise.” ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/17 "2010-09-20T11:54:28Z")
> [@DHMO](#): > > The problem here is, the use of “Repent” means that _ **if the unbeliever converts to Islam** _, they will be spared. If they persist, in their stubbornness, to believe in some other faith [Christianity, Judaism, or other], they are still “unbelievers,” and subject to the first clause: Nah. The word “repent” in this context means “If they stop attacking us”. Have you ever looked at the verses on either side of 9.5 - 9.4 and 9.6? They make it all pretty clear. 9.4 says: > [@](#): > > YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. > PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). > SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). and 9.6 says: > [@](#): > > YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. > PICKTHAL: And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. > SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know. So - If they stop attacking us and respect the alliance then leave them alone. > [@](#): > > The word translated as “Pagans” and “Idolaters” is frequently translated as, “…those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Allah…” and “those who deny the truth….” These constructions have been used to describe Christians and Jews, as well as Hindus, Buddhists, polytheists and any other faith, which does not recognize Muhammad as a prophet of the one true God. But much more often Christians and Jews are recognised as fellow people of the book. Even Zoroastrians and Hindus have been so recognised (if Hinduism gets construed as basically being monotheistic). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/18 "2010-09-20T12:05:20Z")
> [@DHMO](#): > > The word translated as “Pagans” and “Idolaters” is frequently translated as, “…those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Allah…” and “those who deny the truth….” These constructions have been used to describe Christians and Jews, as well as Hindus, Buddhists, polytheists and any other faith, which does not recognize Muhammad as a prophet of the one true God But this is, pardon the pun, a matter of interpretation. It makes far from an airtight case that the Koran clearly states one should kill certain people, which is the subject of the OP. > [@](#): > > The Jews are condemned as well, because, while the Old Testament prophets are incorporated into the Qur’an, and Muslims include both the OT and the Gospels in their beliefs, Jews, by definition, have not accepted Muhammad as a prophet of God: > • 4:160 **(Asad)** So, then, for the wickedness committed by those who followed the Jewish faith did We deny unto them certain of the good things of life which [aforetime] had been allowed to them; and [We did this] for their having so often turned away from the path of Allah. This says nothing about being a pagan or idolator. Playing “Connect the Dots” is far from what this thread is about, which is the topic “under what circumstances do certain religion’s holy texts **clearly** demand certain actions”? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/19 "2010-09-20T17:16:09Z")
A major problem here is that the beliefs of any particular religion are not simply those statements found in some holy book, but also the way they have been interpreted over the centuries as found in authoritative commentaries and the like. For example, to understand Judaism it is not sufficient to read the Bible - one must also read the Talmud. The religion decribed in the Bible is clearly not modern Judaism (for example, large parts of it revolve around having a central Temple and a Priesthood, both of which are extinct and have been for two thousand years or so). Modern Judaism is based on a selective reading and interpretation of the source material over hundereds of years; the OT is simply one source of authority, albeit an extremely influential one. I assume modern Islam is as well, that the Hadiths are necessary to understanding modern Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229/20 "2010-09-20T23:38:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@scamartistry](#): > > > > since it is clearly mandated in many holy books (namely the Koran) that you should kill/stone infidels/nonbelievers under certain given premises. > > This is not in the Koran. It is in the Koran. 109 times, actually. [http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-mean-to-twist-pervert-a-religion/554229.md?page=2)