# What does it say about a candidate who calls Obama an "appeaser"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 9, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569 "2011-12-09T00:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/81 "2011-12-15T00:21:50Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Why the hell would Israel want to bargain at all with a people that do not even recognize her right to exist? Because they’re used to it. They have been bargaining, when not fighting, with all their hostile, expressly anti-Zionist neighbors since 1948; it is a condition of their national existence, to deal with people opposed to it. What’s one more hostile neighbor? > [@yorick73](#): > > You do realize that Israel will give up land in exchange for…well, for nothing. In exchange for getting rid of it and not having to police it any more. In the long run, that’s the best use Israel is ever going to get out of that land. I dunno what the Israelis were thinking when they grabbed the WB and decided to keep it and colonize it, but they’ll never outnumber the Palestinians there, not if they plant settlements for 50 years more, and it will never really be theirs. (And why should it be? The Palestinians are not a bunch of squatters who moved in while the Jews were away, they **are** the Jews, the ones who never left and eventually yielded to conversion pressure; they’re also the Canaanites, the Philistines, the Arabs, the Turks, everybody who has ever lived in Canaan/Palestine/Wherever; and they’re just living where their ancestors have always lived.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/82 "2011-12-15T00:51:43Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Why the hell would Israel want to bargain at all with a people that do not even recognize her right to exist? Why would _Palestine_ want to bargain at all with a people that do not even recognize \*her \*right to exist? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/83 "2011-12-15T07:37:25Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton;14566684 In exchange for getting rid of it and not having to police it any more. In the long run, that’s the best use Israel is ever going to get out of that land. I dunno what the Israelis were thinking when they grabbed the WB and decided to keep it and colonize it, but they’ll never outnumber the Palestinians there, not if they plant settlements for 50 years more, and it will never really be theirs. [/QUOTE] Israel took the West Bank because that was where the Jordanian army was; they simply pushed their enemy back until the reached a natural (and internationally recognized) border at the Jordan River. After that, they held it simply because nobody was willing to negotiate with them for its return. As for the settlements - you’re making the mistake of assuming some master strategy, when no such thing existed. The Israeli Knesset is no more capable of implementing long-term plans than the U.S. Congress is. Read Tuchman’s “The March of Folly” if you haven’t yet; its central thesis is pertinent to the situation. The settlements, in a way, are a lot like America’s involvement in Vietnam - one damn thing leading to another, with no-one in power seeing the forest for the trees. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/84 "2011-12-16T17:27:39Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > Which has been the exact complaint of those who oppose “land for peace” deals since the beginning. Nothing new there. Also, didn’t the PA officially recognize Israel’s right to exist? I could be mis-remembering, and they probably didn’t mean it if they did. But Israel has negotiated with the PA in the past, and will do so again. I think the PA might have paid lip service to Israel’s existence at some point but they routinely engage in double talk depending on their audience. [PA’s ambassador to India](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/150323) denies that Israel has a right to exist. In a more muted speech, a close [Fatah associate of Abbas](http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=223181) said that Fatah has never recognized Israel’s right to exist. > [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > In what way is the US advocating a land for peace deal “appeasement”? All of the mentions of US Middle East policy - and policy shifts - in this thread have been proposed starting points for negotiations. Obama did not even mention the possibility of a reduction is US support for Israel. He’s not trying to appease anyone. The policy shift was an attempt to get people to the negotiating table and get them talking. The very term “land for peace” implies appeasement. The US has had, in recent memory, an attitude of appeasement in any peace deal. Obama just went further down that road by formally stating that the 1967 line should be the starting point. Offering land in order for the other side to stop bombing your civilians is appeasement. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/85 "2011-12-16T17:39:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Because they’re used to it. They have been bargaining, when not fighting, with all their hostile, expressly anti-Zionist neighbors since 1948; it is a condition of their national existence, to deal with people opposed to it. What’s one more hostile neighbor? That a great rational. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In exchange for getting rid of it and not having to police it any more. In the long run, that’s the best use Israel is ever going to get out of that land. I dunno what the Israelis were thinking when they grabbed the WB and decided to keep it and colonize it, but they’ll never outnumber the Palestinians there, not if they plant settlements for 50 years more, and it will never really be theirs. (And why should it be? The Palestinians are not a bunch of squatters who moved in while the Jews were away, they **are** the Jews, the ones who never left and eventually yielded to conversion pressure; they’re also the Canaanites, the Philistines, the Arabs, the Turks, everybody who has ever lived in Canaan/Palestine/Wherever; and they’re just living where their ancestors have always lived.) Both the West bank and Gaza strip are strategically important to Israel. The plan has always been to wipe Israel off of the map. Negotiating a slimmed down Israel only starts this process. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/86 "2011-12-16T18:24:02Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Both the West bank and Gaza strip are strategically important to Israel. The plan has always been to wipe Israel off of the map. Negotiating a slimmed down Israel only starts this process. When my brother worked for an Israeli company, an Israeli once remarked to him, “wanting to expand your territory so you can have more territory is like wanting to get cancer so you can have more cells.” ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/87 "2011-12-16T19:07:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > When my brother worked for an Israeli company, an Israeli once remarked to him, “wanting to expand your territory so you can have more territory is like wanting to get cancer so you can have more cells.” Just out of curiosity…was the Israeli just referring to expansion for the sake of expansion versus strategic need or was he opposed to Israel occupying these areas at all? I’ve known a few Israelis personally through the years and all of them had the opposite view of your brother’s acquaintance. No question there is a diversity of opinion on even this topic in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/88 "2011-12-16T19:09:59Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Oh, bull cookies. The Republican Special Olympic team currently running for Head Fecktard is incapable of “specifics.” They’re trying to hang the “God Damn America!” noose around his neck, and bless 'im he’s having none of it. You should learn from your dear leader that it is not politically correct to make fun of the Special Olympics. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/89 "2011-12-16T19:17:09Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > You should learn from your dear leader that it is not politically correct to make fun of the Special Olympics. Frankly, Scarlet, the Special Olympians could make fun of the Republican candidates this cycle. So, I’ll thank you to keep your “dear leader” jibes to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/90 "2011-12-16T20:31:16Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Just out of curiosity…was the Israeli just referring to expansion for the sake of expansion versus strategic need or was he opposed to Israel occupying these areas at all? [shrug] Dunno, it’s just something my brother told me once years ago. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/91 "2011-12-16T20:36:26Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > You should learn from your dear leader that it is not politically correct to make fun of the Special Olympics. Don’t make me do [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14573539#post14573539) again. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/92 "2011-12-16T21:22:39Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > … The very term “land for peace” implies appeasement. The US has had, in recent memory, an attitude of appeasement in any peace deal. Obama just went further down that road by formally stating that the 1967 line should be the starting point. Offering land in order for the other side to stop bombing your civilians is appeasement. Help me out here - is there any sort of negotiation that might appraoch peace in the Middle East that is not “appeasement” to you? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/93 "2011-12-16T21:54:33Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > Help me out here - is there any sort of negotiation that might appraoch peace in the Middle East that is not “appeasement” to you? Yeah…the Palestinians should stop the fucking bombing of civilian population centers as a prerequisite to starting negotiations. Otherwise you are doing nothing more than appeasing terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/94 "2011-12-17T04:06:48Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Yeah…the Palestinians should stop the fucking bombing of civilian population centers as a prerequisite to starting negotiations. Otherwise you are doing nothing more than appeasing terrorists. Sure - but who has enough control over all of the Palestinians to make that happen? And I think the Palestinians might have a word or two about bombing of their civilians. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not only terrible in itself, but it’s used as the driving excuse for much other strife and violence all over the world. Are we going to try to get the two warring factions to the table to attempt to end it peacefully, or are we going to call every single attempt “appeasement” and let it be derailed? You and I are just talking on the Internet. For political leaders this matters, and lives are in the balance. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/95 "2011-12-17T05:07:51Z")
Was the “land for peace” deal between Egypt and Israel appeasement? Egypt got the Sinai back and Israel retreated to the 1967 borders in that area, Egypt and Israel have not been at war since. Where was the American right-wing angst over that? Oh that’s right, the president was white at the time. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/96 "2011-12-17T23:16:37Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > Sure - but who has enough control over all of the Palestinians to make that happen? And I think the Palestinians might have a word or two about bombing of their civilians. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not only terrible in itself, but it’s used as the driving excuse for much other strife and violence all over the world. Are we going to try to get the two warring factions to the table to attempt to end it peacefully, or are we going to call every single attempt “appeasement” and let it be derailed? > > You and I are just talking on the Internet. For political leaders this matters, and lives are in the balance. Groups within the Palestinian territories, including Fatah, are shooting missiles into population centers where civilians live. If that cannot be controlled by those who want statehood then they should not be allowed to even sit at the table. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/97 "2011-12-17T23:20:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Where was the American right-wing angst over that? Oh that’s right, the president was white at the time. Ah, the last tactic of someone losing an argument. Actually you bowed out some time ago but, I guess, you thought you would pop back in to call your opponents racist. No big surprise. Very intelligent. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/98 "2011-12-18T18:43:51Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Ah, the last tactic of someone losing an argument. Actually you bowed out some time ago but, I guess, you thought you would pop back in to call your opponents racist. No big surprise. Very intelligent. :rolleyes: No need for me to belabor the obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/99 "2011-12-19T04:47:20Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > He is saying that the 1949 lines are **not** a realistic starting point. Obama is saying the exact opposite (WRT the 1967 line) I just read thru this thread, and I cannot understand how you can make the claim that Bush is saying they are not a realistic starting point when the very words quoted from the speech clearly indicate that it is a starting point. If it is not a starting point, how is it that both sides should agree to adjustments to it? I know this point was being made awhile ago, but I can’t understand the leap that **yorick73** seems to be making. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569/100 "2011-12-19T07:07:38Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > \*\*Sure - but who has enough control over all of the Palestinians to make that happen? \*\*And I think the Palestinians might have a word or two about bombing of their civilians. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not only terrible in itself, but it’s used as the driving excuse for much other strife and violence all over the world. Are we going to try to get the two warring factions to the table to attempt to end it peacefully, or are we going to call every single attempt “appeasement” and let it be derailed? > > You and I are just talking on the Internet. For political leaders this matters, and lives are in the balance. More to the point - until such time as you have a “strong”, viable, internationally accepted country, with a govt that has broad based local and international support - how is that ever going to change? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-it-say-about-a-candidate-who-calls-obama-an-appeaser/605569.md?page=6)